Non Practising Solicitor threatening court for nursery dinner debt

[bubbsie1]

Hi Joe Blogs

 

perhaps you should write to this woman/nursery and explain as a fully qualified practising mother you relied on the understanding given by the manager that he would inform you if your daughter did not qualify for free meals; he said nothing therefore it is reasonable for you to assume she was entitled to free meals.

 

In relying on his advice you have found yourself at a disadvantage and in those circumstances you should not be held responsible for the costs.

 

Its called estoppel; estoppel is:

 

a bar or impediment preventing a party from asserting a fact or a claim inconsistent with a position that party previously took, either by conduct or words, especially where a representation has been relied or acted upon by others.

 

 

So if you are given advice/a promise that you have relied on and in doing so you have acted to your detriment the other party is estopped from denying that (i.e it's their fault! cos you relied on the advice of the manager to tell you if your daughter was entitled and he did not inform you you have to pay).

 

As for the nursery assistant if she doesn't have a practising certificate she is not working as a solicitor and is either having a break or is retired; she can refer to herself as a non-practising solicitor if she is still on the register.

 

However what is the point in her referring to herself in that capacity; if she is giving legal advice in the course of a business, and it appears she is, she should have a practising certificate, have a look on the solicitors regulation authority web site.

 

She is trying to intimidate you by using that title,it's not on.

 

 

Good luck

Edited April 18, 2011 by bubbsie1

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

wow that's certainly giving her both barrels!!

 

You certainly need to be assertive and direct in your dealings with the nursery; however it might be more effective if you tone down the obvious frustration and angst she has caused you and just state the facts simply and without any personal references i.e 'bring you down a peg or two'.

 

Also never a good idea to say you are doing this or that i.e 'as you are clearly providing legal advice' might be better to say 'I believe' in the circumstances.

 

If you like I could amend the letter with a few suggestions and sent it back to you.

 

I would not make a full and final settlement, since you are stating you are not responsible for the debt there is no need.

 

Never let the other side know what your 'hand' is suffice to say you have spoken to xxxxxxx and xxxxxx.

 

No offence meant by my criticisms they are meant to be constructive.

 

Let me know if you want a hand ammending the letter.

 

Bubbsie

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

something along these lines might be appropriate;please bear in mind I am not a solicitor and my views are formed my own experience.:

[bubbsie1]

Sorry JB had problems copying that here it is now:

 

 

without prejudice

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated 14 April 2011, your comments have been carefully noted; it would appear from the contents you are not in full possession of the facts relating to this matter.

 

I suggest before you respond to this letter you familiarise yourself with my previous correspondence.

 

As stated I spoke with the Manager Mr XXXXX on XX XX XX and asked him to advise me if my daughter was entitled to free school meals.

 

The manager said he would get back to me if she was not entitled to free school meals so I could make alternative arrangements if necessary.

 

Mr XXXXXX did not come back to me during the four months my daughter ate at the nursery therefore I reasonably believed my daughter was entitled to free lunches.

 

Had I been advised, as promised by your manager, my daughter was not entitled to free meals I could have sent her with a packed lunch and all of this unpleasantness and the threat of legal action and costs would have been avoided.

 

Firstly let me say I take the threat of legal action/costs very seriously and have taken advice on the matter.

 

In the circumstances I am surprised and disappointed you did not hear my account of the incident before you chose to threaten me with legal action, fixed costs, court costs' and 'statutory interest'.

 

As a non-practising solicitor you must be aware that if I have relied on the advice/judgement of your manager and in doing so I have acted to my detriment then it is not my fault.

 

Clearly his failure to keep to the promise he made and the indication by his conduct that my daughter was entitled to free meals has left me with a financial burden I can ill afford.

 

In the circumstances I do not consider I am responsible for this debt given your managers advice/ conduct.

 

 

I am not a lawyer by any standards, however, I understand this principle is referred to as estoppel; something, no doubt you are more than familiar with.

 

Furthermore my understanding of the role of a non-practising solicitor is that in order for them to give legal advice in the course of a business they must hold a practising certificate.

 

Are you the nursery’s legal advisor?

 

 

 

 

If so I will be contacting the Law Society and The Solicitors Regulations Authority to confirm whether you should be acting in such a role since I understand you do not hold a current practising certificate.

 

In order for me to decide whether I need to contact the above authorities please clarify your position and role at the nursery.

 

I am not responsible for this debt and will vigorously defend any proposed court action; in the circumstances I deserve an explanation and an apology.

 

Please accept this letter as a formal complaint.

 

Make any further adjustments you feel necessary and decide if you want to send it. I am not a solicitor my views and advice are based on my own experiences/education so if you feel you want to seek further advice do.

 

Good luck

Edited April 19, 2011 by bubbsie1

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

the letter is not intended to go out verbatim, it's just to demonstrate you can get all across all the points you need to without getting personal or making statements that you might not be able to prove are correct, you don't want to give her any cause for complaint against you.

 

When you draft your letter she will have to respond to the points you've raised.

 

So its just for you to use any of it you feel is relevant to your prolem; amend it as you need to.

 

Good luck

[bubbsie1]

Hi Everyone, hope you all had a good Easter, at least here, the weather has been great. As promised last Tuesday I have now had a chance to tweek my original letter and as follows is the revised version. If you would be kind enough to have a look at it and make any alteration suggestions if necessary. Many thanks to you all. As follows:-

 

Re: Alledged School Dinner Money Debt

 

Thank you for your letter dated 14 April 2011, your comments have been carefully noted. It would appear from the contents you are not in full possession of the facts relating to this matter, or your have chosen to ignore them.

 

I suggest before you respond to this letter you familiarise yourself with my previous correspondence.

 

As stated I spoke with the Acting Manager, Mr X, every week from the beginning of November until the nursery broke up for the Christmas holidays in December 2010. Again and again, I asked him to advise me if my daughter was entitled to free school meals.

 

Mr X always responded to me saying that he ‘would get back to me if M was not entitled to free school meals’ in order that I could make alternative arrangements if necessary.

 

Mr X failed to come back to me during the four months my daughter ate at the school ;;therefore I reasonably believed my daughter was entitled to free lunches.

 

Had I been advised, as promised by your Acting Manager, that my daughter was not entitled to free meals I could have sent her with a packed lunch and all of this unpleasantness and the threat of legal action and costs would have been avoided.

 

Firstly let me say, I take the threat of legal action/costs very seriously and would

inform you that I have indeed sought advice with regards to your claims that you may.be pursuing legal action.

 

I am surprised and disappointed that you did not choose to hear my account of the incident before you threatened me with legal action, fixed costs, County Court costs' and 'statutory interest’.

 

As a non-practising solicitor you must be aware that as I have relied on the advice/judgment of your manager and in doing so I have acted to my detriment it is therefore, not my fault. I do not consider that I am responsible for this debt given your Acting Manager’s failure to communicate with me, this lack of communication has left me with a financial burden I can ill afford.

 

 

I am not a lawyer by any standards, however, I understand this principle is referred to as estoppel.

 

 

So if you are given advice/a promise that you have relied upon and in doing so you have acted to your detriment, the other party is estopped from denying that. Simplified, it is your fault as I relied on the advice of the Acting Manager to tell me that my daughter was not entitled to free school meals.

 

Therefore, the onus remains with you to resolve this issue and not expect me to suffer any financial hardship due to your error.

 

Furthermore my understanding of the role of a non-practising solicitor is that in order for you to give legal advice in the course of a business you must hold an up to date practising certificate.

 

As you appear to be acting in the role of legal advisor to the nursery (which operates as a business) you should hold a current practicing certificate.

 

I have spoken with the Law society, and and at their request I have sent them copies of your correspondence.

 

I trust any future correspondence you send demonstrates that you are able to treat me with respect, and I believe that your use of the word 'solicitor' is a clear indication of your attempt to intimidate me as though I am unable to make a valid defence.

 

I can assure you that I am most certainly not responsible for this debt and will vigorously defend any Court action by submitting a Counter Claim against the nursery.

 

I have spoken with X County Council and brought this matter to their attention. I will in due course be lodging an official complaint against the disgraceful attitude and the veiled threats contained in your correspondence. XCC stated that you have made ‘a very poor statement and not one expected to be voiced by a service provider’.

 

Furthermore, I intend to write to Ofsted sending them copies of your correspondence.

I understand by looking on their website, your nursery reference number XYZ, that the last inspection NURSERY underwent was in 2006. With the attitude you are displaying, I believe that an up to date inspection should be scheduled forthwith.

 

 

In addition, as suggested by X County Council, an apology would not go amiss!

 

Finally, upon the recommendation of X County Council, I want this correspondence recorded as an official complaint.

 

yours faithfully

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

I have tweaked your letter ever so sligthly; just used the words 'I believe' instead of 'clearly you are' also took out the extended definition of estoppel, she will know what it is and you have already given her a clear breakdown of the principles in your account of what went wrong.

 

A good letter JB it does get your point across very well.

 

I would still consider not letting her know about your dealings with the county council at this stage; is she does write and apologise and withdraw the request for payment then you've acheived the result you wanted.

 

If not then play your county council/ofsted card, it's entirely up to you.

 

I took out the costs comments and who should pay for the meals because I don't believe in supplying your daughter with a lucnh anyone has actually incurred any extra cost;after how much can a small child eat and no doubt there is food left over at the end of meals that would probaly be discarded, so your daughters meal would not be an extra expense.

 

good luck.

 

Bubbsie

[bubbsie1]

Cerberusalert

 

it depends entirely on what kind of 'soliciting' you mean

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

here goes:

 

 

 

Dear Mrs G

 

thank you for your letter dated xxxxxxxxx

 

I shall deal with the salient points in chronological order; firstly I am disappointed there is a further delay in resolving this matter particularly since I have made my position clear and do not accept or acknowledge there is any debt owed to the nursery and given the circumstances in which this dispute arose my stance is fully justified.

 

Secondly I do not deny that you have the right to refer to youself as a 'non-practising solicitor' in accordance with the Solicitors regulations 1999; my concern is that you chose to refer to your position in the nursery as 'Business Manager/Non-practising Solicitor' when you claim in your letter your status as a non-practising solicitor is not relevant to your duties at the nursery which appear to be purely admimistrative in your capacity as their business manager.

 

Therefore since it is not relevant to your current employment at the nursery why is it necessary to mention that factl? unless of course it is designed to intimidate/worry those you have dealings with; and if you did not, as your letter suggests, make the decision to threaten me with legal action, fixed costs, court costs and statutory interest please advise who did.

 

Thirdly as stated I spoke with the acting manager Mr XX from the onsett of my daughters attendance; you must/should be aware that I could not have spoken to Mrs XXXXXXX who was on long term sick leave from October 2010 and did not return to the nursery before she tendered her resignation.

 

I trust you will refer copies of my correspondence to the nursery owners and the acting manager with whom you are alledgedly going to discuss this dispute .

 

I hope this matter can now be dealt with as expediously as possible.

 

Yours

 

 

Mrs XXXXXXXXX C.A.G.G.E.R (hons)

 

Again my letter is just a suggestion of how you might want to respond, tweak as much as you need to.

 

Good luck

Edited May 8, 2011 by bubbsie1
mistakes

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

lwhen you do your letter I wouldn't engage in any discussion of her explaining her role/right to be included on the solicitors roll , she knows you are aware of the regulations and as for forwarding a copy of your letter to 'those bodies' you have spoken to, no need to do that she can give them a copy when they contact her.

 

I have little dout that she took the decision to refer to the court action costs etc, can tell from the way her letter is worded.

 

Just sometimes better to say as little as possible

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

I think she like a lot of lawyers she is too full of her own self importance; in fact I am wondering if she has ever practised at all.

 

She just assumed you'd think 'oo er I'm in trouble now better pay' stupid crow!!

 

Let me know how it goes and when you hand in your letter ask for a receipt.

[bubbsie1]

You are welcome JB lets hope that's the end of it!!

[bubbsie1]

Donkey don't bother with an LLB I have one and I could think of much better ways to spend your tiime!!

[bubbsie1]

Ouch BB & Scarlet Pimpernel

 

slightly misogyanistic there!! surely its' all because of a belligerent member of staff/non-practising solicitor (who just happens to e female amongst other things) .

[bubbsie1]

Morning BB

 

haha perhaps if I had looked it up I might have been able to spell it properly; slightly sensitive this morning, only one cup of coffee so far, perhaps I'll have another cup then read it again!!

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

entirely agree with Bazooka Boo diarise the phone call/s from the nursery proprietor and note any further calls from her taking care to include date, time, what said etc.

 

As for not writing the letter yourself so what? if you had taken professional help they would have taken your instructions and written one on your behalf; she should be more concerned about the contents of the letter as opossed to who had written it!!

 

Will work on something tomorrow ready for you to tweak/combine with the other suggestions on the thread.

 

You have dealt with those bullies very effectively so far so don't let them unsettle you at this stage, you are almost on the home straight now.

Edited May 14, 2011 by bubbsie1

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

maybe something along these lines will do:

 

Dear W.I.T.C.H

 

Formal Notice of Withdrawal

 

Further to your telephone call on the xxxxxxx please note after consulting with xxx County Council I shall be withdrawing my daughter xxxx xxxxx from your nursery with immediate effect at their recommendation.

 

During the call you made a numer of comments which were inaccurate, derogatory,insulting and judgemental; on that basis it is clear that any direct contact with you or your staff by phone or in person is no longer viable; therefore any further communication must be in writing.

 

As proprieter is is not acceptable for you to claim you have not been involved in this matter as the owner/proprieter of the nursery you have a vicarious/employers responsibility to ensure your staff adhere to acceptable standards of behaviour and act appropriately at all times.

 

As stated I am not responsile for any debt owed to your establishment and will not be held liable; to allow a member of your staff to threaten a parent with legal action and possible financial penalties without reference to you (since you claim no invlovement in the matter before your call on xxxxxxx) is not the action of a responsible employer.

 

Since my daughter will not be attending your nursery I trust there is no need for any further contact between us and will treat this sorry matter as at an end; should anymore attempts be made to intimidate, bully or harass me these will be forwarded directly to ofsted and xxxxxx County Council.

 

yours faithfully

 

Again JB I am not an expert in these matters, however, I think this letter is along the right lines. Feel free to tweak as you want.

 

If you feel I have been of any assistance feel free to click on my star at the bottom of the message.

 

Good luck and keep me posted.

Edited May 14, 2011 by bubbsie1

[bubbsie1]

Just next to the symbol at the bottom of the actual reply section between the symol which says' promote to an article' and the warning triangle not an obvious looking star JB granted

[bubbsie1]

Forgot to say just hand the letter in, doesn't matter who hands it in, no need for conversation at all.

[bubbsie1]

ooh no don't....tempting as it may sound that would be an assault, possibly a S,20 wounding and Bazooka Boo may get done for incitement/conspiracy.......lol...BB you are terrible but it did make me larf.......

[bubbsie1]

Hi JB

 

well done, lets wait for her response. Most of our family/friends that have children at nursery funded by the local authority do not have to pay for school meals? How appropriate they would be an exception to that rule, tight fisted so and so's

[bubbsie1]

Indicative of how bullies operate GM, particularly so when their 'victims' come out fighting!!

[bubbsie1]

Hi Bridagier

 

all it means is that she does not have a current practising certificate; if she doesn't have a 'lawyers' job no point in having a practising certificate; most legal firms will pay for their employees certificates,and they are expensive, so if she isn't workling as a lawyer then she wouldn 't need one. Of course there is always the possibility she is rubbish and couldn't get a job in a legal firm.