Business account over 19,000 in bank charges.** SETTLED IN FULL ***

[sarahpp]

I have a claim for £4k over 5 years and the interest on that is almost £1k on the standard 8% court rate. Have you thought about whether you are going to claim the contractual rate?

 

Best of Luck

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

I know - I haven't claimed compounded contractual yet because it would have taken me over 5k but, for dolfos 25k at up to 25% compounded -pheweeeee!!!!!!

[sarahpp]

So basically Dolfos, the entire amount owed to your biggest creditor, HSBC is down to unlawful charges?

 

This really is awful - you must have been through so much stress.

 

very best wishes

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

There will be plenty of us watching your thread and wishing you well.

 

I understand what you mean about keeping the claims in under 5k batches to avoid costs.

 

I am glad you are looking at the contractual rate thread. I would have thought that the reciprocity argument carried even more weight when it was business to business but, that is just my opinion obviously.

 

Best of Luck

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

The 8% you add on when you file the claim.

The 23.8% you get to add on now! tee hee!

 

I hate to disagree with HSBCrusher but, from the thead "why is no-one claiming the contractual rate of interest " it looks very much like you can't claim both the 23.8% and 8%. According to the thread (and these people have done a lot of homework) the 8% is in effect a default rate which can be used when the real rate is not known.

 

You should mention both in your preliminary and LBA that you are claiming the contractual rate of interest.

 

Vampiress has constructed contractual spreadsheets in her chambers.

 

In view of the size of this claim and the importance of getting it right I would suggest that you post on the contractual rate thread mentioned above and ask the experts on there to have a look at your thread.

 

It is really important to get the particulars of claim right as well and there is some discussion and also some useful links on the last couple of pages about this.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

sarah/dolfos, got my figs a bit wrong there methinks.

 

yep, ignore the 8% completley.

 

go for the higher rate, you claim this at the beginning.

 

(I have been doing the 8% up to now, and just getting my head around the higher rate thing... shame because I have been through 7 claims so far and missed out on all that lovely interest! My next one has got the compound interest on it.....)

 

Just started out on a spreadsheet for compouded contractual - a bit daunting but, I am sure I will figure it out. It will definately be worth it!!!!

[sarahpp]

I am using the compounded contractual rate dolfos.

[sarahpp]

Dolfos

 

I have just prepared spreadsheets for two Nationwide accounts. The charges were around £2700 but, they were about 5 years ago so, the contractual interest brings the total up to £9500!. I mention this because I was going to submit 3 separate claims but, Dolly pointed out that I would be better off doing them all in one because the court may throw out multiple claims made at later dates as "frivolous".

 

I have read around a bit more. The thread "Glenn vs Abbey" is particularly useful as far as this issue is concerned and I have decided to put a claim in for the whole amount.

 

I mention this because I know that it was an issue which concerned you also.

 

Hope things are going ok

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

How does the interest make it so much more? When I changed the 8% calculation to the 16% it just doubled the interest charge (which seems obvious to me, but maybe I'm doing something wrong). Is changing the 8% to 16% (which is the contractual rate I have with HSBC) correct?

 

Cheers

 

I used the compounded contractual interest spreadsheet from Vampiress's chambers. Basically, you will be doing what the banks are doing and charging interest on the interest if you see what I mean. Why is your rate for HSBC so low ?-you are charging the Unauthorised Overdraft Rate aren't you?

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

The unauthorised rate is about 16% for HSBC.

 

 

Blimey! - 24.9% for Nationwide

[sarahpp]

Try looking at the thread "business bank account charges" where Zootscoot has said that you can't rely on the unfair contracts act 1977 for business accounts and gives a case reference.

 

My claim with Nationwide is over 5k and I am waiting to send off my LBA at the end of this week.

 

Hope this helps

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

Dolfos

 

I can't see from the thread that you have sent a preliminary letter yet. Please don't rush straight onto an LBA otherwise you will give HSBC ammunition to say in court that you have not given them sufficient opportunity for comprimise.

 

Yes, Keep it short and sweet.The template on the forum doesn't give them much "wriggle room". Also, if you are claiming contractual interest you need to mention it in both your prelim and LBA. I put....

 

"I also claim interest at a rate of 24.9% AER as set out in the attached list of charges. I believe this rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity and it is based on your Unauthorised Overdraft interest rate. Therefore, the total amount owed as of today’s date is £******."

Hope this helps

Sarah

 

 

[sarahpp]

According to Financial News, City News, Mortgages, Loans, Savings, Pensions, Market Reports | This is Money for the HSBC small business account Unauthorised business overdrafts are charged at £3 per working day + 22.1% EAR.

 

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

How about this as a first letter much more K.I.S.S I hope:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Account name: *******(Formerly)

Sort code: ******

Account number: ***********

 

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my business account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to Statute.

 

 

If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated the account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them.

Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

I calculate that you have taken £25,257.05 in total between June 2002 and December 2005.

 

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Much more K.I.S.S.! You do need to mention contractual interest in both prelim and LBA letters though

 

"I calculate that you have taken £***** in levies and further, I also claim interest at a rate of ***% AER as set out in the attached list of charges. I believe this rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity and it is based on your Unauthorised Business Overdraft interest rate. Therefore, the total amount owed as of today’s date is £*****. "

Are you not going to claim the £3 per working day fee as well? They charge that on top of the 23% and I would imagine, in your case, it will add up to quite a bit on its' own.

Sarah

[sarahpp]

thanks for this I will re look at and re work out amounts over weekend. Thanks for your help with this x

 

No problem - we are all behind you. Getting what is rightfully yours won't make up for all the misery the bank has caused you but, hopefully it will go some way towards it.

 

Have a good weekend

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

Excellent. I think that most people are claiming the current Unauthorised rate but I see your reasoning and agree that should it get to court it works very much in your favour to have appeared to be as reasonable as possible and this comes over very well in your letter. I am surprised actually that the figure isn't higher- did you use vamps google spreadsheets compounded throughout?

[sarahpp]

No I used the contractual rate one was this wrong?

 

I used number 2 spreadsheet from Vamp's chambers which was contractual interest compounded throughout. You are quite entitled to compound-it is what the banks do. It shows as "Vamps recommended " if you don't know the balance on the account. If you do know the balance there is a more complicated recommendation further down but, it was byond me I am afraid.

 

I think you might find yourself closer to the 50k mark if you use the compounded contractual spreadsheet.

 

Hope this helps

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

when you say balance of the account what do you mean do you mean at time account was closed or at time of the breach?

Sorry I am a little confused. I do appreciate all your help with this

 

Neither I think. My impression was that you entered it as a running balance but, because some of my overdraft was at the authorised rate and some wasn't I gave up and used the number 2 spreadsheet which is more suitable for simpletons like me. On charges from around 6 years ago it compounded £3k of charges up to around the 9.5k mark so, it is well worth using.

 

If you don't want to use the one I used and fancy having a go at the one with the ongoing balance it may be worth posting on the "why is no-one claiming the contractual rate of interest" thread started by Bankfodder and asking Vamp or one of the other experts to have a look at your thread to see which is the most suitable for you.

 

Hope this helps

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

My pleasure - just looking forward to seeing your thread with ****won*** after the title.

[sarahpp]

Stay strong Dolfos.

 

I think we probably all felt a bit nervous the first time we dropped our preliminary letters off for posting. I know I did - I just kept repeating in my head

 

Have I done my research properly -yes

Have I followed the correct procedure -Yes

Are the charges unlawful -Yes

Are the banks going to want to stand up in court and disclose how they arrive at their charges - NO!

Is this money mine - Yes

 

I know your claim is on a much larger scale but, the principles remain the same.

 

I can assure you of one thing - the bank will not be laughing when they get your letter!!

 

Good Luck

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

After reading this I am worried and now wish I had just gone for the charges . If it goes to a court claim can I just put in for the 25K plus the statuaratory 8% under s69 or is this too late and will it effectthe claim?

 

Further down the thread it becomes clear that the poster was not claiming contractual interest and he states that if he had been then, the bank's barrister would have had a less forceful argument. There is also the issue of the fact that he had apparently already accepted part payment which included the statutory interest and was then going on to claim a higher rate. Maybe I am being simplistic but, the argument seems to be more about which % rate is applied and to me it would seem common sense to argue that if the bank had taken money which was unauthorised by the customer by dint of the fact that the charges were actually an unlawful penalty rather than an accurate reflection of costs the customer should be able to charge a rate of interest on that unauthorised borrowing which is equable for both parties.

[sarahpp]

That was my thoughts when I read it, but I thought this was a quite valid thread to look at. To take on this claim you need your eyes WIDE open....

 

 

I agree - and a very valid thread with a lot of excellent arguments coming through on it.

[sarahpp]

thanks for this

I sent off prelim letter on the basis of 20% EAR compounded interest. Would the argument for the unauthorised interest rate still be valid.I agree if the bank charges are unlawful as we know them to be then as you say unauthorised interest rate would be applicable and fair.

Any thoughts in the issue of possible off setting any monies reclaimed with the business loan in the IVA?

 

For myself, I believe that the unauthorised interest rate is still very valid. I also believe that you have arrived at the rate you have chosen and presented your argument to the bank in the right way. You have not charged them their full unauthorised rate and neither have you charged them the £3 (or £4 according to their website) which they have charged you per working day. It looks to me like you have chosen something between the authorised and unauthorised rate as a gesture of goodwill and in the spirit of compromise.

 

I don't have enough experience of IVAs to comment on how repayment will be made but, I strongly suspect that the bank will fight tooth and nail to get their balances settled first. It just seems that looking through individual threads, it appears that posters are having a real battle trying to get settlements paid out in full by cheque without the creditors taking what they believe is due to them first.

 

Hope this helps a bit

 

Sarah

[sarahpp]

thanks sarah

I take on your point about the interest andin my panic had forgotten the extra add on they apply of the 4 pound. Thanks for reminding me I feel much happier.

 

letter should have been recieved today will check tomorrow to try and get name of who ever signed for it too.

 

You sometimes have to wait a couple of days before you can see who signed for it on the Royal Mail Website. It will probably just show as "delivered" today. I had the Halifax say my prelim letter never arrived but, luckily I was able to print off the signature from the website as proof.

[sarahpp]

Dolfos -there is an interesting discussion on the "why is no-one claiming contractual interest" thread pgs 15-16 about contractual interest and court allocations which may be of interest to you.

 

Sarah