NTTF Vs Restons/HFC

[NewToTheFight]

Hi pt2537

Are you suggesting I enter an embarrased defence on line now, along with a CPR 31.14 request to see the corrctly executed agreement and the Default Notice in the prescribed format? Should I also issue an N266 asking them to admit the correctly executed agreement & DN are not in their posession / don't exist?

[vjohn82]

I might be missing something here but if you have not acknowledged service of the Claim Form (which was issued on 12 March) then surely you are out of time to do so?

[NewToTheFight]

I just phoned the court at 14.19 and spoke to their operator Becky who said I have until 31st... to reply

[vjohn82]

Ok... so some time lol

[NewToTheFight]

A little time

need to decide on best direction to take, have you had a look at the documents I scanned & posted? I also have 2 copies of an application form (a little fuzzy if I say so myself) that were sent as S77 reply.

I was under the impression that with mo correctly executed agreement & a faulty Dn I was home & dry - just have to get the court to agree....

[vjohn82]

Well that would be the case you would think but another CAGGER has been shafted in court this morning on this very thing...

[NewToTheFight]

Do we have details yet?

[NewToTheFight]

Any thoughts on the direction to take? I was hoping to get court papers acknowledged tonight

[NewToTheFight]

I am ready to use this content in my CPR request and enter an embarrased defence at court, any thoughts from other Caggers?

 

 

CPR 31.14 Request

 

I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton county court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a signed, verified and legible copy of the document mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

 

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

[Delfi101]

A little time

need to decide on best direction to take, have you had a look at the documents I scanned & posted? I also have 2 copies of an application form (a little fuzzy if I say so myself) that were sent as S77 reply.

I was under the impression that with mo correctly executed agreement & a faulty Dn I was home & dry - just have to get the court to agree....

 

Think again ... you're likely to have a long and highly technical fight. This is just the start of the process regardless of how 'good' you think that your evidence is.

 

There is nothing easy about this form of litigation.

 

D

[NewToTheFight]

Unfortunately I think you are right and fight I will, I'm not sure if i need to enter an acknowledgement of service before midnight tonight so just looking into that for now..

[Delfi101]

You have 14 days to file an AoS (which you can do online)from receipt of the documents from Northampton - that buys you a further 14 days to file a defence (embarassed or not.).

 

DO NOT miss deadlines - your opposition might do this but you should play the whole thing straight.

[NewToTheFight]

Issue date was 12th march +5 days to date of service +14 days = 31st

I believe defence should be lodged before that...

[Delfi101]

If you plan to defend just acknowledge service online now.

 

You may well have gone beyond the deadline from your supplied dates as it is.

 

The AoS allows you extra time to formulate a defence - nothing more.

 

The default is 14 days - the AoS allows for a further 14.

 

At the moment the AoS is important and the defence is not.

[NewToTheFight]

AOS filed, & proof that it was done on 30th. Why do you think I have gone past my date?

 

Will send CPR letter tomorrow, but I think to use CPR31.15 this will get me the 'agreement' that they are to rely on in court. Then I can construct a proper defence when I can see the 'agreement' that they are to use.

[NewToTheFight]

Hi Vjohn,

Is this enough wording on a N266 form? Do I send this to the court for action or the claimant?

 

You (the claimant) are not in possession of a signed, correctly executed agreement and were aware of this prior to issuing this claim.

The Default Notice issued on 19th January 2010 is faulty in that it is not of the prescribed format as required by s88 of the 1974 Consumer Credit Act. The Default Notice also fails to provide sufficient time to remedy the default.

[vjohn82]

So AoS filed on 30th... this gives you a further 14 days.

 

The CPR request looks ok... but I would extend it to cover all documentation that they intend to rely upon and that disclosures outside of this process will naturally require an amended defence which you would suggest they agree to in order to ensure you are not prejudiced as a Litigant in Person.

[vjohn82]

Hi Vjohn,

Is this enough wording on a N266 form? Do I send this to the court for action or the claimant?

 

You (the claimant) are not in possession of a signed, correctly executed agreement and were aware of this prior to issuing this claim.

The Default Notice issued on 19th January 2010 is faulty in that it is not of the prescribed format as required by s88 of the 1974 Consumer Credit Act. The Default Notice also fails to provide sufficient time to remedy the default.

 

Sounds fine... send it!

 

If you find any further issues you can always send another one!!!

[NewToTheFight]

Thanks vjohn, N266 sent to the court (recorded del) is this wording ok for the CPR?

 

CPR 31.14 Request

 

I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton county court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a signed, verified and legible copy of the document mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

2. Any and all documents you intend to rely upon in court.

Any disclosures outside this process may, by nature, require a review of any defence. It is assumed that you would agree to such an amendment in order not to prejudice myself as a Litigant in Person.

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

 

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

[vjohn82]

Sounds much better ;-)

[Delfi101]

Now all you need to do is put together an 'embarrassed defence' whilst you wait for their total failure to comply with your CPR request

 

If you're really lucky you might get a letter explaining why they can't (or won't) comply. It's most likely that you'll hear nothing until much later though. They're not going to take you seriously at this stage and will be dealing with very many cases like yours simultaneously. They play a numbers game.

 

From now on make sure that everything that is sent to them is done either via Recorded or Special Delivery. File everything that you send and receive and keep a diary etc etc. No business by telephone.

 

The war begins and, like all wars, it's going to be mostly very boring periods of posturing inactivity punctuated with short bits of important hectic action.

 

D

[NewToTheFight]

Thanks Guys, CPR request will be sent first thing in the morning (recorded- helps with my costs claim )

Then as you say get the embarrased defence ready to file.

Are there any more proactive steps that I can take to put them in a more difficult situation ?

[Delfi101]

Nothing really. It's very much a waiting game from here on in. Let's see what they do in response to your CPR request. I'm still betting that it'll be ignored until later in the process though.

 

The initial game that they play is very much based on scare tactics. They don't want you to be calm and prepared. There's nothing to be scared of at all and, whilst there may be deadlines, it's all reasonably achievable.

 

YOU must always play by the rules (and be able to show that you have) and take the moral high ground at every point.

 

For now, fire off that CPR letter in some recordable fashion and see what happens.

 

As another tip NEVER reply to the court with formal documents in the future until the very last moment (this may require Special Delivery in future as a guaranteed means of next day delivery - this is its big advantage over Recorded). Don't give them any more time than you have to.

 

Oh and don't sign anything from now on - a made up squiggle or an online signature generator (Google turns these up) will do.

 

All the best,

 

D

[vjohn82]

I always use Terry Pratchett's signature on my docs... that way if they fake anything I simply point out that the signature does not belong to me and the creditor is complicit in fraud.

[diddydicky]

I always use Terry Pratchett's signature on my docs... that way if they fake anything I simply point out that the signature does not belong to me and the creditor is complicit in fraud.

 

re CPR32.18 on a n266 - this is interesting- can it be used at any stage?

 

secondly in post 41 the n266 does not seem to be asking them to confirm if they have the original documents- merely making an accusation which does not demand a response- is that right?