tick box shenanigans

[badhorse]

Hi, I renewed an existing loan with Black Horse in June 2008, I declined PPI as usual, the agreement had a PPI tick box which I did not tick. The loan had a three months 'rest' before the payments started. When I later became unemployed I phoned up to ask to reduce my payments until I was in work again. During this conversation I was told i had Life and Critical Illness PPI. I was surprised. I checked my paperwork and confirmed that I had not ticked the acceptance box, and noticed that it was undated and the adviser had not signed it. I complained and told the bank to freeze my account until this is resolved. They sent me a copy of the agreement but their copy has been ticked, and is now signed by the adviser, and dated a day after I attended their office. They have not frozen my account but have harassed me considerably. The loan was for £5500, at 17.9% APR. The PPI cost £933 plus £487 interest at 17.9 APR. I have pensions which would pay out on death or critical illness, so the PPI is unclaimable anyway.

Any comments?

[mkb]

If they state that you wanted PPI, ask then to supply the demands & needs statement. Your signature will be on there only IF YOU ASKED FOR THE PPI.

 

Think those lovely BH peeps have been very very naughty here so start a line of written communication with them & keep every bit of paperwork you send & receive (as well as the envelopes).

[badhorse]

I had signed beside an empty tick box, as my copy clearly shows. No tick, no consent! The tick was added on the bank's copy, after i signed, and my copy proves this. I have just been brushed off by the bank but i'm going straight back asking them to clarify their explanation as it didnt mention any of my points.

[livingdeadguy]

This does sound like a clear cut case \of miss selling.

You say that this was renewing an existing loan?

I'm just wondering, did you have ppi added on the original loan? As this may be why they automatically ticked the box on the new loan and possibly where vtheir confusion comes from.

Though that is not the point and they have still made a big mistake to assume that you wanted ppi on this loan.

Add to this the harrassment you say you have received, then i think you will have a strong case against them!

[badhorse]

No, I have never accepted PPI cover, I've always known it was of limited use, and was a silly price. I have copies of all previous agreements to show that this was my habitual and constant position on this cover.

[postggj]

there was new legislation that came in that states you can no longer sell ppi etc at point of sale, a two weeks grace is needed

 

for the life of me i cant find out the date it came in

 

still looking

[Jan4a]

Sounds like you need to get the PPI reclaim letter off - sooner the better. Start the "official" reclaim process and if they argue you can go to FSA or Court. If they have any sense though they'll just pay out, even if they just take it off any arrears.

 

Have you got a reclaim letter?

 

Jan

[Jan4a]

there was new legislation that came in that states you can no longer sell ppi etc at point of sale, a two weeks grace is needed

 

for the life of me i cant find out the date it came in

 

still looking

 

 

I can't either - have a feeling it was only this year though. Think I saw it on FSA website.

[mkb]

From the FSA website:

 

 

PPI sold with credit – changes from 2010

 

The Competition Commission (CC) has published its

final report into the payment protection insurance (PPI) market, setting out the measures it has decided are needed to introduce competition between suppliers.

[/url]

To address the lack of competition, the CC will introduce a package of measures to improve competition in the market, including:

• a ban on the sale of PPI during the sale of the credit product and for seven days afterwards;
  
• a prohibition on single-premium policies;
  
• personal PPI quotes;
  
• annual statements; and
  
• measures to make sure that improved information is available to consumers to make it easier for them to compare and search for products and switch policies at a later point.
  

The Competition Commission expects these changes will come into force in 2010.

 

To coincide with the CC’s publication we have published on the FSA website a clarification of the ICOBS requirements for sales of PPI given this new context.

 

Smaller firms online - Your Firm type

 

This suggests that the ban is only from 2010 but, like you, I thought it had already been implemented.

[postggj]

thanks for the link mkb

 

i to thought it was from immediate effect

[Jan4a]

Yes, thanks for info. Should have known it always takes them years to bring something into force!

 

 

Badhorse, here is letter that is a good starting point - just amend firsst couple of paras accordingly ie you didn't request it. Send recorded delivery, think they have to reply within 40 days, if its a No, then go FOS. Can't see you losing as you still have your copy with unticked box.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: Account / Policy number: 123456789

I have been looking at my agreement with you, reference above and have noted that I purchased Payment Protection Insurance from you.

I am now of the belief that I was mis-sold this policy for the following reasons:

 

 

1. Employment Status: Due to being self employed when I took out the policy.

 

 

2. Responsibilities When Underwriting a Policy of Insurance: On each occasion, when the details of a loan were discussed your sales advisors failed to check my personal circumstances at the time of the sale, which they are under obligation to do when underwriting a Policy of Insurance. If they had done so, they would have realised that the PPI policies were useless to me. At no time was any attempt made to ascertain if the product provided was fit for purpose, suitable for my needs or if indeed it was required at all.

 

 

3. Alternative Insurance Cover: Your sales advisors in each case failed to ask me if I had any alternative arrangements for insurance cover. My employer has a generous illness package which would cover a period of sickness as follows: 6 months full pay followed by 6 months half pay. I would also be entitled to a generous redundancy package and a substantial payment would be made in the event of my death in service (more than suffice to clear the balance of the loan).

 

 

4. Failure to Supply Important Information with Regard to Significant Policy Exclusions: I was most definitely not informed that the PPI policies could contain certain exclusions which could affect me and my ability to claim on the policies if I should need to. Additionally I was never told that Pre Existing Medical Conditions could invalidate my policy and I was never asked if I had any Pre Existing Medical Conditions despite your advisors being aware I was in receipt of a War Disablement Pension. One element of this pension includes back injury which I know is an exclusion in PPI Policies. I also believe that I would also be excluded on at least one other existing condition.

 

 

5. Widespread PPI Mis-Selling:I am now aware of the widespread mis-selling of PPI by some financial institutions, following recent media coverage and recent OFT, FSA and Competition Commission investigations and inquiries regarding the mis-selling of PPI. I believe this is borne out by Point 3 above. I am also aware that the question of PPI cover is the subject of an ongoing inquiry by the Competition Commissioner

 

 

6. Wholly Inappropriate PPI Selling - Employee Bonuses: I understand that some employees are paid higher bonuses if they get prospective creditors to take out PPI with loans. How can the best interests of the customer possibly be met, if there is a clear conflict of interest between your responsibilities to me, and the drive of your employees to sell Payment Protection Insurance whether it is suitable or not in order to receive bonuses?

 

 

7. True Nature of Single Premium PPI Not Explained: No explanation was forthcoming from any advisor on any occasion on the full extent of single premium PPI policies or the fact that they would offer little or no refund if the loan was settled early or if the insurance was cancelled. The statements you have forwarded on accounts xxx and xxx, show no element of any refund of PPI or PPI interest when the accounts were refinanced or settled. There was also no explanation that the cost of the PPI premium would be added to the total cost of credit and interest added for the full term of the agreement. I believe this practice is unlawful.

 

 

8. Unfair attachment of PPI with no competition involvement: I now believe that the single premium PPI policies attached to the loan accounts were both extremely unfair and totally unreasonable and offered me very little, if any protection value whatsoever. Furthermore I believe in light of the preliminary finding by the Competition Commission that the PPI was unfairly attached as there was no opportunity for me to seek competitive Insurance. I am therefore requesting a full refund of all costs including all single PPI premiums that have been paid, the interest added to these premiums and the PPI proportion of the direct debit payments, that I have paid over the life of the account agreement.

What I expect from you is justification that the policy was suitable for me based on my circumstances and an explanation as to how your suitability criteria works. If you cannot justify this to my satisfaction I request a full refund of all premiums paid to date as well as interest on these payments.

 

 

Furthermore as I believe I have been unlawfully deprived of this money, I also expect the repayment of the interest at the Statutory Interest rate of 8% to be applied to of each of the single premiums and the PPI proportion of the direct debit payments.

 

In respect of cancellation of a policy may I draw your attention to the following reports from the FSA, namely, 'The sale of payment protection insurance - results of thematic work, November 2005' & 'The Sale of Payment Protection Insurance - results of follow-up thematic work, October 2006'' that state "When consumers cancel the PPI without repaying the loan, some firms will need to reissue the loan without the PPI. Firms should ensure they treat their customers fairly in relation to the terms on which they reissue the loan.". This means that any new loan is on the same or better terms and does not detriment me in any way and that this is to be done without making a new search on my credit file.

I expect a swift response to this letter within 14 days, containing either your full justification or notice that you will be refunding these payments.

If I do not receive a satisfactory response I will issue another letter notifying you of my intention to take further action if the matter is not resolved within a further 14 days. After this limit has passed I will be either contacting the Financial Ombudsman to investigate my complaint or issuing court proceedings.

Yours faithfully

[badhorse]

well, because of the added tick to their copy, a clear case of a commission greedy adviser 'bending' the rules, i have written pointing out that the loan is now unenforceable, asked for the return of all payments I have already made, and asked them to clear my loan acount, with no detrimental credit scoring. When I discovered the problem I wrote to collections suggesting that the loan repayments be stopped and the account frozen until a decision is reached. They have refused to freeze the account, and texts and phone calls are frequent now. They may take me to court, will this be a bad thing? Or would i be better taking them to court first?

 

I just got a 'final' response saying there was no mis-selling, but he didn't even mention the tick box. I wrote back with an itemised list of questions for him to answer before i accept his investigation has been adequate. see what happens now.