PCN help please!!!

[wellinever]

Hi guys, new to the forum just after a bit of help with a PCN.

 

Not the first i have recieved but the first one that i feel should be challanged.

 

Straight up, i was parked on double yellows but i was ticketed at 12:40 am today! :-x :-x

Is there some sort of reasonable hours thing i can contest on?

Also when i retreved the ticket this morning, upon opening it i see what appears to be a sticker that has been half pulled off. it covers some details of the ticket specifically the CEO number, half of the "we had reason to beleive that a contravention" stuff, half of the contravention itself, the date, time and the location.

 

some of this info (time, date and contravention) is repeated on the payment slip at the bottom but surely traffic wardens should not be issuing tickets that are incomplete?

 

i know that i was in the wrong by parking there in the first place, not that i had much choice, there are almost half-a-dozen large work vans parked in my small stretch of road alone and i did spend half an hour looking for a space.

but anyway, do any of you think i could contest on the grounds that the ticket is incomplete??

 

thanks

[Jamberson]

Straight up, i was parked on double yellows but i was ticketed at 12:40 am today! Is there some sort of reasonable hours thing i can contest on?

 

No. Double yellows are in operation 24 hours a day. There's no such thing as reasonable hours in a case like this - you were just unlucky to get ticketed.

 

Also when i retreved the ticket this morning, upon opening it i see what appears to be a sticker that has been half pulled off. it covers some details of the ticket specifically the CEO number, half of the "we had reason to beleive that a contravention" stuff, half of the contravention itself, the date, time and the location.

 

some of this info (time, date and contravention) is repeated on the payment slip at the bottom but surely traffic wardens should not be issuing tickets that are incomplete?

 

but anyway, do any of you think i could contest on the grounds that the ticket is incomplete??

 

Interesting. The answer is yes, you could contest it on those grounds. But the more important question is, what are the chances of your appeal being upheld. That I don't know. Less than 50/50 I would guess, but nothing to lose by giving it a go.

[wellinever]

Thanks for the reply Jamberson, i am aware that double yellows run 24hrs a day i just didnt think traffic wardens did. i assumed that beyond a traffic wardens "normal hours" (whatever they may be) that it would be the police ticketing the car for some kind of more serious offence like obstructing roads in a more serious way.

 

it just strikes me as odd to why a CEO would issue the ticket when it is incomplete. surely the details on the ticket such as the time date and CEO number are as important as the details of the car?

 

with regards to the appeal holding up as you say there is nothing to lose by giving it a shot, has anyone on here succesfully challenged a contravention code 01?

iv heard that if you can get it to the appeal stage then it almost always goes your way as the council dont often take the time to compile evidence etc, this came from some one i know that works for CAB but im still not sure on the validity.

 

Thanks

[Jamberson]

The hours that the parking attendants work vary from place to place, but I know some areas they patrol after midnight.

 

I'm not sure if the PCN would be classed as incomplete. Do you mean that some of the info was never printed on it? Or is it printed on, but with a sticker covering it up?

 

Code 01s are won mainly on mitigating circumstances, appeals of loading/unloading or dropping off passengers at the time, or having a blue badge which was not displayed. It's uncommon for one to be successfully contested without a reasonable line of argument, and unfortunately time of day alone won't swing it.

 

I don't think it's true about these cases usually succeeding. I presume from the mention of compiling evidence that your CAB friend is referring to adjudication hearings, because for standard appeals, there's no need for the council to compile evidence. Cases the CAB are involved with are probably untypical - I wouldn't expect to win at adjudication on the basis that the council won't provide evidence - they can and do, every day. I think PATAS (the adjudicator) publishes stats on how many are won and lost by each local authority, and how many are not contested, but I wouldn't gamble on it if I were in your place.

[wellinever]

the text that should have been there was never printed, there is only a small amount of the actual sticker still on there but nothing is printed over the top of the sticker at all.

 

ill give the appeal a shot either way, and yeah i did think that if someone had gone to CAB in the first place then the circumstances are going to be beyond that of your normal, clear cut PCN

[Jamberson]

I drafted a letter for someone on this forum, who has a PCN printed where the ink failed, and so not all the details were on it. Sounds similar.

 

This is what I wrote, tweaked to suit your case (sorry, don't know what the outcome eventually was). You could use it if you wanted:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

On xxxxx I was issued a PCN, a copy of which I enclose [NB enclose a COPY - keep the original, unless they specifically ask you to submit it].

 

I believe the condition of the PCN is such that it is legally invalid on several counts. The PCN falls outside of the Department of Transport's guidelines, since it omits several key pieces of information. Similarly, as you will be aware, a stream of adjudication rulings over the years have served to define what must be accurately printed on the PCN.

 

As served, this PCN does not include:

 

- -

 

I trust you will agree with me that the PCN may not be enforced, and agree to revoke it on the basis that it is invalid.

 

Thank you in advance,

 

Regards etc...

[lamma]

can we see a picture of it ? washed of identifying details of course. IF statutory information is missing that is the point - its statutory information not 'guidelines' stuff.

[wellinever]

Jamberson - that sounds spot on thanks very much.

 

lamma - what do you mean specifically by "statutory" information exactly?

 

The road name/location is missing, the CEO number and a majority of the "we believe a contravention has occurred" etc etc

[lamma]

the information that must be on a PCN is defined by statute - not by guidelines. we need to see a picture of the PCN.

[wellinever]

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss75/bw_photography_2009/Untitled-1.jpg

[lamma]

thats only the front - was the back blank ? council may claim that you put the white sticky paper on it. . . .

[wellinever]

the back just says how to pay it.

 

i understand what you mean but what doesnt show in the picture very well is that the visible bit of the sticker on the left is the only bit of the sticker. the rest where the sticker would be is completely blank where it failed to print

[Jamberson]

There's no print under the sticker, right?

[Blagton]

the back just says how to pay it.

 

The back is as important as the front - as Lamma has mentioned the details that must be provided to you on a PCN are defined by statute. The back may fail to do that.

[wellinever]

Jamberson- correct there is no print under the sticker.

 

Blagton- the back literally details how to pay by post, online and over the phone. it also says how to challange the PCN and what will happen if you dont pay ie a NtO being issued. there is no statute on the back at all.

[Blagton]

Blagton- the back literally details how to pay by post, online and over the phone. it also says how to challange the PCN and what will happen if you dont pay ie a NtO being issued. there is no statute on the back at all.

 

OK - you obviously know best.

 

Good luck.

 

Rgds

Blagton

[majornews]

Maybe the double yellow lines were there for a reason. If you failed to observe them, how about paying the fine? Do you think it's right to try to challenge it when you know you were in the wrong?

[crem]

Do you think it's right to try to challenge it when you know you were in the wrong?

 

Yes, if the council haven't complied with the legal guidelines for issuing the PCN, including all the statuary information required, then it should be challenged and hopefully not paid.

[lamma]

Maybe the double yellow lines were there for a reason. If you failed to observe them, how about paying the fine? Do you think it's right to try to challenge it when you know you were in the wrong?

 

Because signage is just ONE of the things that council has to get right. they have to get the rest right as well. all those pesky statutes that bind the councils, its terrible isn't it. And its not a fine.