Cabot Financial – Dealing with Cabot Financial

[exasperated]

Hi guys,

Dont know whether this is relevant but maybe Cabot have changed tact recently, I cca'd them and they told me that they did not have the agreement it was with Barclaycard who now own Egg and to continue paying. I sar'd Barclaycard who confirmed no cca so sent letter in dispute to Cabot. Got a letter back yesterday saying that they would not demand payment, process my data etc etc until thay received the cca from barclaycard.

Just posted this as it may have relevance

Exasp

[BeauBrummie]

Hi guys,

Dont know whether this is relevant but maybe Cabot have changed tact recently, I cca'd them and they told me that they did not have the agreement it was with Barclaycard who now own Egg and to continue paying. I sar'd Barclaycard who confirmed no cca so sent letter in dispute to Cabot. Got a letter back yesterday saying that they would not demand payment, process my data etc etc until thay received the cca from barclaycard.

Just posted this as it may have relevance

Exasp

 

To be honest that sounds to me like a standard reply from Cabot, they will write again in a couple of weeks with a similar load tosh and then perhaps go quite for a while----then send you a illegible peice of paper that they will insist is an enforcable agreement under the CCA, and then if you dont pay or are not frightened into paying with their barrage of threatograms they may even issue court proceedings and STILL insist they have a enforceable agreement------do you see the pattern???

 

Cynical I know but I have had this fight for a long time now, trust me all Cabot want is YOUR MONEY, by anyway they see fit to get it.

 

Sorry for the rant but Cabot are not looking after you and NEVER will!!!

 

Beau

[exasperated]

Beau,

Thats interesting maybe that will happen, but rest assured I am under no illusions that any of my creditors are my friends. I didn't really clarify what I was stating about changing tact which is related to this thread.....

 

I have for some time now pondered why these creditors sit and wait, not willing to accept any reduced offers yet supposedly cannot recoup a penny, economic sense, I think not. Therefore it was the point that the particularly aggresive Cabot have acted in this way with me. I thought that maybe pertinent as if you read the beginning of the thread one of the points was to establish a pattern of who they do and do not attack I thought

I'll let you know when they get aggresive if that happens

Exasp

[cymruambyth]

Something else to be aware of, Cabot will leave you alone for several months, but keep all paperwork secure because they will then launch a new attack thanking you for your payment proposals or launching into some threat.

After 6 to 10 months of silence 2 accounts have just resurfaced . I may be battling 4 different accounts at 4 different stages with them. Hopefully they will alll follow the same game plan so that I can amend all my latters to suit.

[trumpetmaest]

An excellent thread SH. Cabot are a slippery customer as I have found out.

[Stephan56]

As I regard Cabot as a "thought leader" (they try new tactics first, and, if these work, other DCAs who watch Cabot will try to copy them) it may be useful to see how Cabot respond in light of the recent court decison (which is the subject of another thread). Clearly, as that decision gave a "green light" to various OC and DCA actions (steps DCAs take to harass people are not deemed "enforcement" - notwithstanding a lack of a CCA) it will binteresting to see if Cabot "ups its game" in the "harassment stakes".

 

As with Exasperated, I have also been unable to figure out why a DCA will not accept a settlement when they have NO CCA and no prospect of getting any money out of me with threats and other efforts at coercion. In this regard, Cabot is like all the rest and it would be interesting, in our efforts to battle Abot, to get further insights into their "policies re settlement". It would be great to get an idea as to their internal settlement guidlenines and the reasons why they act the way they do. To me it lacks economic rationale - but Cabot and others ARE clever firms, so I think it is me that is missing something.

 

Things are changing in this "arena" and I think we all need to be on the top of our game and armed with updated and credible information in order to "battle back" effectively.

[hunni2006]

Hi all

first let me say this is a great thread!

 

I am having my own court battle with Cabot, & a single thread that gives you a heads up on their tactics & points people in the right direction is definitely needed, a lot of information is hard to find as it often means hours of reading through lots of different threads, and in my case often confusing myself as to which is the important or relevant issue.

 

I too came to this site as a result of 'googling' Cabot financial as I received a summons through the post from Northampton CC...... which judging by the threads on here is standard practice for them - Probably because unless the claim is defended there is no requirement for them to produce a detailed POC or any supporting documents. so they win regardless of the validity of their claim & despite the fact that they show a blatant disregard for the court process and rules. ( I'm sure they are supposed to have things like the agreement In their possession prior to commencing any court action)

 

A link to my thread is below, and Cabot/Morgans have played plenty of underhand tactics in my case which can be found in more detail on my thread, but I will summarise a few here to help keep information in the same place.

 

For those who don't know, Morgans are Cabot's own 'in house solicitors'.

 

They filed the usual Northampton CC claim, with vague POC .

I responded with:

 

1. a CCA request to Cabot,
   
2. A CPR 31.14 to the solicitors requesting the agreement, default notices,notice of assignment, termination notice, and 'anything else they seek to rely on',
   
3. A CPR 18 for the same information ( just to be sure)
   
4. A SA request to the original creditor, *(unfortunately, I was new to this and the letter I sent just asked for details of the default charges)
   
5. A SA request to Cabot(proper one this time)
   
6. CPR 18 addendum - request for further information - for the Deed of assignment/bill of sale
   

I filed a ' holding defence' stating vague POC & the need to see the docs.

 

I would recommend sending ALL the above requests if you find yourself in the same situation, as the responses (or lack of response) to them can be very enlightening, and can also help you to catch them out.... ( even the letters below were substituted for different ones that didn't include the wording highlighted when I got the SA bundle)

 

• I received a response from Cabot re the CCA request stating 'they do not hold the agreement on file, & will request from OC', and then 2 weeks later I got another stating that they had been unable to supply agreement & "we're suspending collection activities on the account until such time as the agreement can be provided to you":grin: Yippeee thinks me...I received a second letter saying pretty much the same, - This seems to be a similar letter to one posted earlier on this thread..... so don't count your chickens!
  

 

• and then I received an Allocation questionnaire & notice of transfer of court. - ( I actually thought the court had made a mistake, and I had received the AQ as I had filed a defence online, or that the paperwork had crossed somewhere and they weren't aware that Cabot had suspended all collection activity!:lol:... silly me!) obviously the letters are to lull you into a false sense of security whilst the solicitors are moving the case on behind your back.
  

Long story short(ish)

 

AQ filed, 2nd SA to OC, Account in dispute letter to DCA, Judge struck out claimants POC & gave 14 days to file amended POC together with supporting documents, they asked for & got 14 day extension & filed just in time. I recieved their papers last week. they include the following:-

 

• amended POC (over 2 pages long!)
  
• T&Cs as the agreement
  
• full set of CC statements
  
• computer log of 'action on the account' DCA files
  
• a letter from the OC which I never received sending me a copy of the T&C as a copy of the executed agreement in response to my CCA request. Odd because I never sent them a CCA request, this letter is dated the same day as the letter I received offering me a reund of charges, (a letter which, Suprisingly, doesnt appear in any of the papers I've been sent) And I was still receiving letters from the DCA 6 weeks after this saying the OC cannot find my agreement.
  
• A letter from the OC reporting to be the notice of assignment -funny, in the bundle from the DCA, They were the ones who sent the notice of assignment:rolleyes:
  
• a list of charges applied by the DCA
  
  

 

responses to my requests were as follows:-

 

 

• NO RESPONSE from solicitors to any of my CPR requests
  
• SA response from Original creditor prompted an immediate offer of refund of all default charges on the account- ( I had sent the wrong letter only asking for details of default charges)
  
• SA response from DCA included T&C's for the agreement, letters that I have never received, a copy of a default notice that is absolutely laughable, statements, computer logs,and a random page on a DCA letter head proporting to be the notice of assignment (the letter has nothing linking it to any other letter, nor has it any addresses on it or signatures, dates, etc.)
  
• Second SA was sent to OC (correct one this time) and the response was a stack of paper obviously from a screen print from the computer, but I Can't make sense of it, and details of the data processing etc. and that was it! their covering letter said " as your account has been sold we no longer hold your record on file.
  
• Fianlly, in response to an "account in Dispute letter" sent to the DCA I received a further set of statements, a new letter from the OC that I have never received dated only 3 weeks ago, quoting 'electronic signature' & a copy of the T&C again. The letter also stated they are allowed to process my data, even though the account is in dispute!
  

So many things have come to light that I am beginning to get confused as to what is relevant & what is not!! Between the OC, Cabot and the bundle received from Morgans with the new POC, There are large amounts of conflicting information, but importantly, Crucial information is missing ... I think the idea behind this is to bamboozle, bully and terrify you with mountains of documents in the hope that you will get confused and disheartened and give in! DON'T DO IT!!!

 

Read everything they send you CAREFULLY, and don't loose sight of the fact that this is exactly as stated in an earlier post on here.... Smoke & Mirrors...

these are just some of the things I've noticed from mine....

 

 

1. The original amount includes an amount for charges
   
2. there is no proof of any default notice from the OC
   
3. There is no termination notice
   
4. There is no proof of notice of assignment, ( even the OC & DCA can't agree on who sent it, and have only included 'representations' of letters sent)
   
5. There has been no response to my CPR requests at all by the solicitors
   
6. There has been no production of the deed of assignment
   
7. The T&C's do not constitute an enforceable agreement
   
8. the complete lack of information in the SA response from the OC is amazing... even the letters they supposedly sent to me since action began in May this year and included in the court bundle & the DCA bundles weren't in there.
   
9. the fact that they have tried to mislead me at every opportunity by substituting letters that I have copies of, for different ones (that I never received) in the bundles.
   
10. I am concerned at the number of letters in these bundles that seem to be totally fictitious and have never been received by me.
    
11. and finally, given that they haven't responded to my CPR requests, and have not filed copies of default notice, deed of assignment, notice of assignment, or any termination notice, shouldn't the judge just throw it out anyway?
    

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/202646-cabot-financila-vanquis-cc.html

 

I must admit to having doubts as to whether I could fight theses people.... everytime I seemed to be convinced that I was in the right, and Legally they don't have a leg to stand on and couldn't possibly continue... they keep barging on regardless, & all I can do is respond & wait for the next attack, when in reality this should have been thrown out long ago!

I have yet to recieve any instructions from the court re the new POC, which as far as I'm concerned should be struck out... but I'll have to wait & see!.

 

Apologies for the long post!

[hunni2006]

hi to the guest!

[Fred Bassett]

Good post. I'm dealing with Cabot on a couple of accounts, one (ex Cahoot) which I'm paying and the other (ex MSDW/Goldfish/Barclaycard) which I'm not.

 

The thing I find most intriguing is the 'welcome to Cabot' and notice of assignment letters that they send. In my case, these were not sent and all Cabot were able to produce were primary mail merge documents stating that "this is what they would have looked like". By that time, Morgan Stanley had reduced the balance of the account to zero and as far as I'm concerned, that is what it is.

 

I also challenged Cabot on the original agreement and invited myself to their office to view it. They declined.

 

They are a slippery bunch indeed. Personally, I agree with the tactic of replying to every letter. I don't want to give them the excuse that I ignored them. To this end, it is very useful to know that Cabot will accept email. If you use an email client instead of web-based email, there is usually the option to get confirmation that the email has been sent. Cabot do this, so it spares the expense of postage.

 

My post is here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/131660-fred-bassett-morgan-stanley-2.html

 

Regards.

 

Fred

Edited October 13, 2009 by Fred Bassett

[Fred Bassett]

Here's the other link relating to my request to visit Cabot's office: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/213329-cabot-has-anyone-ever.html

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[hunni2006]

forgot to mention, my hubby has an account bought by cabot at the same time as mine, but his never went to litigation, I CCA'd them for him at the same time as mine & they have no agreement for him either.

Anyway, I sent them the account in dispute letter from a template on here, and included the section 10 notice re the processing of his data etc, and they responded saying That they had every right to process his data... will dig the letter out & quote exactly later, but basically they are continuing to process data even though the account is in dispute.

 

Also, noticed on the computer printout from cabot in my case, they had done a land registry search & recommended waiting for a CCJ and going for a charging order as a way forward for mine, before they started the litigation, I think they are aiming for the houses! lol

Edited October 13, 2009 by hunni2006
Missed a bit!

[Fred Bassett]

How about this for a cocked-up notice of assignment: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/225773-saddler10-cabot-egg.html

 

Priceless.

 

Fred

[hunni2006]

this is the general text of the letter my husband received in response to an account in dispute letter.

Our Final response to your complaint

I refer to your letter dated xth and our letter dated xth

I understand you have made a request for a copy of your credit agreement under sections 77-78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ("CCA"), with Vanquis , the original lender.

 

We have made several urgent requests to Vanquis to forward any documentation relating to your account to us. Unfortunately, Cabot has not received this documentation due to a delay in retrieving this information from their archives. We shall, however, continue to pursue this information and on receipt of the requested documentation, shall forward to you accordingly. In the meantime your account has been placed on hold.

 

Please be advised, that the failure to provide a copy of your agreement in time does not affect the legality of your debt with the Cabot Financial Group ("Cabot") but merely renders the credit agreement unenforceable until such time the agreement can be produced. er... it makes it legally unenforceable

 

With regards to your subject notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 ("Data Protection Act"), section 10(1) of the Data Protection Act states:

 

"Subject to subsection (2), an individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing, or processing for a specified purpose or in a specified manner, any personal data in respect of which he is the data subject, on the ground, for specified reason -

(a) the processing of those data or their processing for that purpose or in that manner is causing or is likely to

cause substantial damage or substantial distress to him or to another, and

(b) that damage or distress is or would be unwarranted."

 

Section 10(2) of the Data Protection Act states:

"Subsection (1) does not apply

(a) in a case where any of the conditions in paragraphs 1 to 4 of Schedule 2 is met, or

(b) in such other cases as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State by order."

I refer your attention to paragraphs 1 to 4 of Schedule 2 of the Data Protection Act, which states:

Conditions Relevant for purposes of the First Principle: Processing of any Personal Data

1. The data subject has given his consent to the processing. - erm.... where's the signed agreement proving that then?

2. The processing is necessary

a. For the performance of a contract to which the data subject is a party, or - no, does not apply

b. For the taking of steps at the request of the data subject with a view to entering into a contract - does not apply

3. The processing is necessary for compliance with any legal obligation to which the data controller is subject, other than an obligation imposed by contract.? don't think that applies either

4. The processing in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject." - yeah right! lol

You shall note from section 10(2)(a) of the Data Protection Act, the words "any of the conditions" and paragraph 1 and 2 of Schedule 2 of the Data Protection Act are entirely relevant to your case, as you signed a credit agreement which has been assigned to Cabot.

 

In relation to your concern regarding the processing of your data, Cabot is legally entitled and obligated under the original credit agreement which you cannot find! and under the Data Protection Act to process information and also to report to the Credit Reference Agencies ("CRA's"). We disclose information to CRA's about customers' conduct of their accounts because that disclosure is necessary for the purposes of legitimate interests pursued by us, other members of the credit industry and the CRA's. CRA's hold such data and disclose it to prospective lenders because that is, similarly, necessary for the purposes of the same legitimate interests.

 

Furthermore, under the original terms of the credit agreement, which you signed with the creditor, NO agreement can be found!!! you consented to information being disclosed to third parties and CRA's. Accordingly, the Data Protection Act, section 4, Schedule 1 and Schedule 2 of the Act, in particular paragraph 6 of Schedule 2, permits disclosure of such information to and by CRA's without the customers' consent. could anyone clarify this bit please? I cannot find these sections.

 

I enclose a copy of our complaints procedure, "Putting the Pieces together" leaflet as requested. If you have any further queries in relation to the above account, please do not hesitate to contact me on 0845 026 0463. The Customer Assurance department is open from 9am to 5pm Monday to Friday.

Yours sincerely

[Stephan56]

I have received the exact same leter (as no doubt have many others). I will just address the point about processaing data. For me, the argument that we are processing the data "under the agreement you signed" (despite not being able to produce the agreement) is nonsense. After a while (gi9ving htem a reasonable time to find it) surely the rule SHOULD be that he agrement is not deemed to exist - and anything that flows from taht agreement (right to process data, your obligation to repay etc) is all null and void.

 

As it is, we are in a "wierd limbo" situation where they act AS IF there was an agreement, cannot prodcue one when requested, and yet can carry on, seemingly indefinitively, as if there was an agreement. Totally barking.

 

I woudl have thought (but as a realsit, I am not holding my breath) that the OFT, DOJ, Info Commission etc., would have stepped in to put in place some rules and regulations to clarify this. Maybe something like 180 days after a request for a CCA, and it not being produced, all processing data must automatically stop. And the "agreement" is AUTOMTICALLY deemed null and void and no collection efforts can continue. Or something along those lines

[BeauBrummie]

 

As it is, we are in a "wierd limbo" situation where they act AS IF there was an agreement, cannot prodcue one when requested, and yet can carry on, seemingly indefinitively, as if there was an agreement. Totally barking.

 

 

Quite right Stephan,

 

It is the "Smoke & Mirrors scenario as Scabhunter put it by Cabot that prevents even the Judges seeing sense. This is of course what Cabot want to "muddy the waters" in the hope of default judgments gained, I really do hope I get a "Sensible" Judge at the end of the month, meanwhile I am just building my pile of ammo------cant wait!!! and this is only a prelim hearing to see if the scavengers can get an SJ.

 

Beau

[hunni2006]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/206940-stop-charging-orders-petition.html

 

the above link has some information on charging orders that I was unaware of, and Cabot are definitely aiming for a charging order in my case.

they had done a land registry search before commencing legal action.

[kitchenboy]

Hi, just about to start my own adventure with this lot, so just my 2 cents;

 

I think maybe we are concentrating to much on taking the CCA route in court, a much easier argument exists with the assignment of the debt.

 

"If a contract is not effectively assigned under statute, it may still be assigned under common law by an equitable assignment. An equitable assignment may exist where the requirements for a statutory assignment are not satisfied. The main practical consequence of an equitable assignment is that the assignee cannot bring an action in its own name against the third party, but must fall back on the rules governing equitable assignments and join the assignor as a party to the action."

 

So the argument is not that an assignment has taken place but whether Cabot have the right to sue you without the OC being party to action. I guess the only way for them to prove they can, is with the original T&C's containing your signature.

 

This may just be one road that cabot don't want to go down, dodgy assignment notices that are potentially fraudulent, data protection issues, damages relating to credit file entries and so on. These are all open to exposure in court.

 

If they get through that, then they still have to argue their case in relation to a suspect CCA.

[PriorityOne]

When they purchase accounts, it's under an Absolute Assignment and not an Equitable one. Without the CCA however, the assignment in itself is invalid. I am currently using this line of argument and am waiting for their response.

 

Also, where there's been an Absolute Assignment with a balance containing unlawful charges, then the assignment is also invalid..... so there's a 2-pronged argument here.

 

I'll need to dig up some paperwork on this and post back....

[hunni2006]

When they purchase accounts, it's under an Absolute Assignment and not an Equitable one. Without the CCA however, the assignment in itself is invalid. I am currently using this line of argument and am waiting for their response.

 

Also, where there's been an Absolute Assignment with a balance containing unlawful charges, then the assignment is also invalid..... so there's a 2-pronged argument here.

 

I'll need to dig up some paperwork on this and post back....

this is great, do you have a thread?

[spamheed]

I joined the Cabot Fan Club this week heres my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/225933-spamheed-cabot.html

 

Not a lot has happened up to now, I got exactly the same introduction letter and another allegedly from Egg, however the coding on the side of both letters proves that they were both created on the same machine, by the same operator - so either Cabot are impersonating Egg or vise versa.

 

 

When I spoke to Trading Standards about it, they felt that it was a matter for the police as it would be misrepresentation, however they would be more than happy should Cabot continue to chase after being told about the dispute.

 

I agree that a single thread with guidance on best practice would be beneficial to all (except Cabot)

[exasperated]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/206940-stop-charging-orders-petition.html

 

the above link has some information on charging orders that I was unaware of, and Cabot are definitely aiming for a charging order in my case.

they had done a land registry search before commencing legal action.

Hi Hunni,

I got a charging order from an unsecured loan and went to court after only being a cag member for a few weeks last year. The judge was an absolute nightmare and said he had 1 question 'did I owe the money' I replied 'yes but' expecting to give my side of the argument. No buts he said and granted them the order. I have to say that we should start a new thread as it cannot legally correct that you enter an agreement with a creditor on a unsecured basis and they can change that to secured without your written permission.

Good luck with yours, hope you do better than me

Exasp

[hunni2006]

Hi Hunni,

I got a charging order from an unsecured loan and went to court after only being a cag member for a few weeks last year. The judge was an absolute nightmare and said he had 1 question 'did I owe the money' I replied 'yes but' expecting to give my side of the argument. No buts he said and granted them the order. I have to say that we should start a new thread as it cannot legally correct that you enter an agreement with a creditor on a unsecured basis and they can change that to secured without your written permission.

Good luck with yours, hope you do better than me

Exasp

 

:eek:Flippin' eck!

 

Surely that can't be right! the Judge must be obligated to listen to your defence?

Is there nothing you can do about that? appeal or something?

 

This is the scary thing isn't it?

 

Often these cases leave no room for the Judges discretion if the agreement is at fault, but the DCA's have a habit of obscuring that fact by overloading the case with smoke & mirror arguments as has been mentioned earlier on this thread.

 

In your case however I would certainly be Hopping mad, and trying to find a way to appeal that order.

[spamheed]

I have always said that I'd just stop paying the mortgage and walk away. A bit extreme I know, but I couldn't live with the idea that someone like Cabot or one of the other lowlifes has that sort of hold over me

 

A charging order is only applicable if you have an interest in property, once the property has gone, then it would effectively revert to CCJ and could be included in a bankruptcy

 

But then I am in negative equity and would welcome bankruptcy if it meant seeing off this lot and getting a chance to start again debt free

[Fester Tester]

When they purchase accounts, it's under an Absolute Assignment and not an Equitable one. Without the CCA however, the assignment in itself is invalid. I am currently using this line of argument and am waiting for their response.

 

Also, where there's been an Absolute Assignment with a balance containing unlawful charges, then the assignment is also invalid..... so there's a 2-pronged argument here.

 

I'll need to dig up some paperwork on this and post back....

 

If the assignment WERE absolute, then Cabot cannot claim that the CCA does not apply, when they are challenged for copies of agreements.

 

Thay cannot have it both ways.

[exasperated]

:eek:Flippin' eck!

 

Surely that can't be right! the Judge must be obligated to listen to your defence?

Is there nothing you can do about that? appeal or something?

 

This is the scary thing isn't it?

 

Often these cases leave no room for the Judges discretion if the agreement is at fault, but the DCA's have a habit of obscuring that fact by overloading the case with smoke & mirror arguments as has been mentioned earlier on this thread.

 

In your case however I would certainly be Hopping mad, and trying to find a way to appeal that order.

I am just starting it now but not really fully up to speed how to go about it. I have a thread listed as it is my plan to start at the bottom with the default notice and carry on up from their. Hopefully some of the more experienced 'caggers' will get involved. I am in no doubt whatsoever that if cabot got in front of that judge or someone similar they would get a result every time.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you don't get one like that

Exasp