Speeding ticket. Dundee

[Thanatos]

Hey. i need some advice. on the 10th of this month on my way home from asda i was driving along the A92 (Greendykes road) which i and others were doing 40 on. apparently its a 30 zone and i got clocked at 41. i drove past the road again the next saturday observing the area. leaving dundee's douglas asda i went along moffat road and took a left down kingsway east to the 5 roads roundabout then down the A92 greendykes road. if you google maps it its dual carriageway.

 

when i drove past it again it is very much so not clearly sign posted as there is a 30 sign that looks like it is for strips of craigie road. at the start of greendykes road on the road itself there is white lines indicating speed however this is very much so faded and you need to squint to make out the 30. driving down the road (at 30) i noticed most cars overtaking me at about 40.... so its not just me that thinks this.

 

 

my point is that i was unaware i was speeding so what can i do about it?

[Conniff]

This is justification for them to drop it.

 

If you have a video camera, take a slow drive from Asda filming all the way so that you have evidence. Also take some still pics of the 30 sign.

 

Was this a camera ticket or a police car?

[Thanatos]

It was a stationary van thing.

 

i got the NIP so i sent that off ASAP and should be getting a conditional or whatever this week or early next week.

 

i looked into what happens and process and stuff so i have 3 choices. guilty, not guilty or guilty with mitigation.

 

what should i do from here? plead guilty with mitigation and write to the courts explaining reasons as my first post? or phone somewhere to advise of the situation?

[lamma]

check that the signs and limits are correctly signed and enforceable. they are supposed to check all that before starting the session but often fail to and or get it wrong. And check the signs are where they supposed to be - they do get put up in the wrong location, it has to be exact.

[Thanatos]

so should i go with the guilty with mitigation then?

[Rob S]

I would suggest you do a Google search on "fightback forums" and then go to the site that the search brings up. They have many who have a lot of expertise on speeding matters and would be able to give you good advise.

 

I am not saying that CAG isn't able to provide that, but the fightback forum site specialises in motoring matters.

[lamma]

mitigation ? you mean special reasons not to endorse. you have shown none and I expect have none. plus you question the signs - validate the signage ! go back, take plenty pf pictures, post them up. measure the positions of the signs. check the Traffic Order.

[patdavies]

I haven't bothered searching GoogleEarth, but are there any street lights on the road? If so, are they 165M or less apart?

[RichardM]

Having just looked at Google Earth, the street lighting is approx 40 yards apart which indicates a 30mph zone in the absence of any other speed limit indications.

 

You can see the 30mph circular speed sign painted on the road as you enter Greendykes Road from the roundabout. Not sure how you got the idea that the painted sign applied to Strips of Craigie Road, because it is 45 yards past the junction. Most telling of all, however, is that there are no speed limit signs posted on the corners of any of the side roads leading off Greendykes Road. That is always a good indication in a built up area that you are already in a 30 mph zone.

 

It would appear at first glance that your entire route was in a 30mph zone.

[Thanatos]

the 30 sign on the ground has seen better days. the google maps picture isnt current

 

when you turn left out adsa kingsway east is a 40 zone

[RichardM]

OK

 

Have found a council document authorising a reduction in the permitted speed on Arbroath Road, which is the continuation of Kingsway, from 40 to 30mph which does confirm that Kingsway itself is likely to be 40mph.

 

If all roads leading off the roundabout are 30mph, I would expect to find a 30mph speed limit sign on either side of the carriageway on KINGSWAY, on the approach to the roundabout.

 

If the council have located them there, it would mean that the roundabout itself would be 30mph and there would be no requirement for any further signs except for Westbound on Kingsway which would raise the limit to 40mph.

 

Somewhere, you should have passed two 30mph signs, one on each side of the carriageway.

 

It still might not get you off the hook, as the street lighting alone without repeater signs is an enforceable indication of the road speed limit. which is why Pat asked the question about lighting.

 

Have a read of

Speed Limits

 

Also came across this which confirms the 30mph limit on Greendykes Road

http://www.safetayside.co.uk/TSCP%20generalleaflet.pdf

[patdavies]

the 30 sign on the ground has seen better days. the google maps picture isnt current

 

Doesn't matter. It is always an additional sign and with no enforceability of its own. IOW, the on-road surface roundel is not sufficient on its own to prescribe a limit.

[patdavies]

It still might not get you off the hook, as the street lighting alone without repeater signs is an enforceable indication of the road speed limit. which is why Pat asked the question about lighting.

 

 

Just so. The lights alone are sufficient indication in law. In a 30 mph limit with lighting, 30 mph repeater signs are specifically forbidden. For any other limit within a lit length of road, there must be repeater signs.

[scaniaman]

Passed along the bottom of Greendykes road today (read this post yesterday). certainly has 30mph sign at bottom and no repeater signs on lamp posts. 40mph repeaters on the Ferry road lamp posts. Now for the truth---many people, self included, have used this DUAL CARRIAGEWAY for years, at speeds in excess of 30mph. What is the purpose of a dual if not to allow increased speed. Sorry, I can't help you, but how about inserting a piece in the readers letters column in the COURIER. This would warn other people of the 30 limit, and if enough public support gained, then authorities MAY just place more prominent signage. You should be aware of the power of the Courier---no more bridge tolls!!!

[crem]

What is the purpose of a dual if not to allow increased speed.

 

The dual will increase the volume of traffic a road can take per minute, which in itself can lead to increased average speed and therefore reduce journey time.

[scaniaman]

Crem, this is rather a unique road. We non Dundonians call it "Pylon Road or Brae" At the bottom of this road is the main Dundee-B/Ferry road. The junction is controlled by traffic lights both entry and exit. When one starts climbing up this road, the central area is wide and is home to huge pylons. There is a roundabout approx half way up. The road terminates at the large roundabout at the end of the Kingsway, and has an awkward left twist at this point. This is the steepest part of the road and between the twist and incline it is a nightmare trying to get away, especially for laden HGV's, given that the trailer will be partly over the other lane. No traffic lights at top. There is no motoring or safety reason for this road to be limited to 30mph, hence most of us travel faster. If the authorities are hell bent on this being restricted to 30, then signing needs to be displayed much more prominently. I feel deeply sorry for Thanatos, as I got done for speeding on a dual carriageway between Glasgow and Paisly, many years ago. That is why i suggest puting something in the Courier.

[RichardM]

It may be a dual carriageway, but from the looks of the road, it passes through a highly populated residential area where the pavement and the carriageway are not separated. There are bus stops at several locations with no lay-bys, meaning buses stop in the carriageway. The carriageway itself appears to be only about 20 foot wide and did not (at the time of the photo I have just looked at, have a central lane separator). Two trucks can no doubt pass each other, but there's not much space between them and each side of the curb. There are also a number of side roads leading onto and off the road with some pretty tight corners, and through passageways across the central reservation for traffic that wishes to turn right. Two vehicles stood one behind the other waiting for a gap in the traffic will, quite possibly, result in the second having it's rear end slightly foul of the carriageway. There is also, as you say, a roundabout halfway up.

 

All of this can result in stationary and slowing traffic pulling in and out of some pretty tight junctions, pedestrians, buses stopped in the carriageway and traffic pulling out to pass them etc and you would suggest it is a 40mph or higher speed road?

 

I think that the residents of Greendykes Road and the surrounding streets might well disagree with you on that one. Incidently, Thanatos was travelling down the hill where I suspect they have far more trouble stopping if travelling at excessive speed.

Edited January 24, 2009 by RichardM
Spelling

[scaniaman]

RM. You have completely taken out of context what I wrote. Of course I don't advocate "High Speed". 40mph in a modern vehicle is a crawl. As for residential area--yes, but Dundee council (to the best of my knowledge) don't force anyone to live there, and the houses are a reasonable distance from road and not at road level.

The salient point is that this stretch of road is part of the MAIN TRUNK road serving East Scotland and carrying all the traffic from east Angus south. Many of us, inc. HGV's from the North East, use this road to reach the Tay Bridge for forward journey through Fife, joining the M90 @ Dunfermline. This saves them the trail all the way to Perth and up the steep Balmanno Hill at BoE.

Their is a growing number of us petitioning Govt. to have the A92 dualled in it's entirety through Fife, as slow moving vehicles make this road a nightmare and very dangerious. As I write this, the words "heat & kitchen" spring to mind. No -Greendykes Rd. should not be a race track, but many of the problems you highlight could be quickly and cheaply eradicated. To assist staying competetive in these hard economic times, we need our goods and people to minimise journey times.

Dundee is a road speed mess. You have a 50mph limit going from the station along past the airport. When does one ever get the chance to travel at anything like 50 here--only one slow vehicle can hold up everyone. During the last 6 weeks i have had to attend Ninewells Hosp. daily. Speeds on this road have varied from 28mph to 43mph.

Edited January 24, 2009 by scaniaman
forgot

[RichardM]

Sorry Scaniaman. I didn't take it out of context. I was replying specifically to what you stated in your post:

 

There is no motoring or safety reason for this road to be limited to 30mph, hence most of us travel faster.

 

I simply highlighted several reasons why Dundee Council could possibly consider the road speed limit of 30mph to be appropriate.

 

Irrespective of what we all think of speed limits, and I agree that at times they are beyond comprehension, we have to respect them or take the risk of getting caught out.

 

The OP posted that the road wasn't properly signposted. We've told him that it would appear that it is. If you are driving down a road which has street lights at regular intervals, whether it is dual carriage or not, you have to assume that the road is 30mph UNTIL you see a signpost indicating otherwise. As I also said in my initial reply, the fact that none of the side roads have speed limit signs on their entry is an almost cast iron guarantee that it's a 30 as well. He had plenty of indications, if he had chosen to look for them. Sadly he was pursuaded more by the speed of other drivers, many of whom have received similar documents no doubt.

 

By all means, if you want to go to the press and highlight this road as only having a 30mph limit that motorists are getting caught out by and that it should be higher or better signposted. Be prepared for two things though.

 

1. Being pointed towards the details of the local speed enforcement initiative giving locations of their speed cameras and the maximum permitted road speeds on those roads (I've so far come across four websites with those details for the Dundee area which includes Greendykes road and it's 30mph speed limit). Just google Greendykes road speed limit

 

2. The letter from the enraged residents whose son/daughter/dog was killed on the road by a motorist who chose to ignore the speed limit.

[scaniaman]

Speed Cameras?? Initially they were supposed to be located near accident blackspots etc. Now they are just cash generating machines, being situated at locations where an easy catch is imminent--like Greendykes Rd. There is little or no accident records on this road. Like old lorry drivers (knights of the road) , todays good drivers warn oncoming drivers as to the location of van based cameras, which helps strangers as well as locals, evade these parasites.

[RichardM]

Sorry, but you don't need vehicle owners to warn of mobile vans. They post the proprosed locations on the internet in advance for all to see, if they bother to look.

 

Tayside Safety Camera Partnership News Update Page

 

News Release 23 January 2009

 

Mobile Safety Camera Locations

 

 

Tayside Safety Camera Partnership (TSCP) continues to target safety camera activity at sites with a history of collisions and evidence of speeding drivers. For the period commencing Saturday 24 January 2009 to Friday 30 January 2009, there will be safety camera activity on the A9 Stirling to Perth and Inverness and the A90 Perth to Dundee and Aberdeen.

 

 

Additional mobile enforcement will take place during the week at the following locations and routes detailed below.

 

Angus: A92 Arbroath to Montrose; A933 Arbroath to Brechin; A935 Brechin to Montrose; A923 Muirhead to Blairgowrie near Piperdam.

 

Dundee: C218 Laird Street; C221 Strathmartine Road; C231 Charleston Drive; A92 Greendykes Road; A972 Kingsway East; A90 Kingsway.

 

Perth & Kinross: A91 Milnathort to Devon Bridge at Dalqueich Crossroads; A977 Kinross to Crook of Devon at Balado House; A923 Muirhead to Blairgowrie; A93 Old Scone to Blairgowrie near Meikleour; A94 Scone to Coupar Angus.

 

 

* Please note that the deployment schedule may change according to operational priorities.

[scaniaman]

Thanatos. Have spent a fair while trawling the web in a last ditch attempt to help you. Somewhere, I read that it is worth while checking what make of camera caught you, as some makes are not all that reliable. If you were well over the top, then i doubt if you can be helped, especially if you are local.

Edited January 26, 2009 by scaniaman

[scaniaman]

Richardm. Not every stranger to Tayside buys a local paper, neither do many drivers, especially truckers, carry a laptop with them. Some of us just don't have the time to p--- around with either. Yesterday, i drove twice down greendykes road and once up it. My observations:- On north bound trip traffic slow due to roadworks at top (some brainless clone has sanctioned a pedestrain crossing at top of road right at large roundabout). PP (peoples parasite) in van on south carriageway, but north drivers warning south traffic which crawled down road. PP realised "pair trade" and left area. On approach to Greendykes road from north, on first trip, i asked shotgun to lookout for 30mph signs as i required all my wit to negociate junction. No 30 signs noticed except damaged ones previously described on road. Road clear and reasonable speed achieved to traffic lights. On second trip, heavy traffic restricted speed to 30& under.

I drive what is generally termed an old mans car (old diesel) and have to say i found it VERY difficult to restrict speed to 30 on this road when clear of hazards. Having surveyed the whole situation on this road, any fair thinking person can only deduce the use of camera vans is soley a cash raising excercise. But be warned all you anti car folks, these ped crossings at top of Greendykes road will cause chaotic gridlock on kingsway, and arbroath road.

Regards lamp post spacings, it would be an enlightening excercise to carry out roadside survey to see just how many drivers could estimate the distance between them. I rather doubt if many drivers, especially those who passed test a while back, even know that these spaces indicate the presence of 30mph. Anyway, who sets speed limits?---certainly not professional drivers.

Edited January 30, 2009 by scaniaman
dipit

[RichardM]

Scaniaman.

 

You say that it is very difficult to drive down Greendykes Road within the speed limit. However, it has been deemed a 30mph road, and whether you like it or not, you drive at that speed (using the brake if necessary) or risk getting caught. I'm not an anti road campaigner. I drive just like you. I break the limit occasionally, just like you and almost every other on the roads.The difference seems to be that I resign myself that if I ever get caught "legally" I will just accept it.

 

I don't like it either. I have to pass through a section of dual carriageway on my way to work which has a 20MPH limit on it. Perish the thought if they ever stick a camera on that one, but the limit is there for a reason.

 

As for the spacing of the lighting, I don't think it takes a genius to recognise the difference between 40 metre spacing and 184 metre spacing, which is the maximum distance allowed to make a road automatically 30mph.

 

Like it or not, and whatever you think of mobile cameras, you've as good as admitted that the location is one which is well definded as an area of persistent breaching of the speed limit. Since they are unlikely to raise the speed limit, which seems to be there for a good reason, there is only one way to get them to take away that mobile camera and that is to reduce the amount of speeding going on at that location. There's only one group of people who can do that, and that's the drivers themselves.

[scaniaman]

When you can tell me what the accident stats. inc. fatalities are for greendykes road, then i shall be in a better position to assess if cameras are there to reduce accidents caused by speed or pure and simply revenue collectors. Initially, we were told that cameras were to be placed at accident black spots, not places where people chant it on a bit. Again I invite you to tell what qualifications the people have who set the speed limits for any particular part of the Queens highway. I have seen today a typical example of a driver who is a danger even at speeds of 30mph on any road! Perhaps we should both consider drawing a line in the sand on this one, lest we open up a can of worms on driving abilities, which appears to be a very emotive subject for many people, because it shows a great divide in societies attitude to the use of our roads.