CCA - Section 78 "signature boxes need not be included."

[dashforcash]

Some creditors have supplied me with copies of the agreement that includes the signature box in which is my signature.

 

However some are claiming there is no such requirement to provide a copy of the original agreement so all I have received is a copy of an agreement NOT a copy of my agreement.

 

How should I respond?

 

Also if they have failed to supply a copy with or without a signature box would I be able to say that until such a copy is received the debt is disputed and therefore they must NOT issue a default notice?

 

Help appreciated.

[twofoot]

They may not be required to show the signature but if it goes to court they would need to. You should post up the agreements on here, minus your personal bits. You'd be right about default notices but they will still issue them, they just flowt the rules.

[Pinky69]

They have to supply a true copy of YOUR original agreement and a signature box with your signature in it as well as the other prescribed terms or the alleged agreement is unenforceable. They will say anything if they think they can get away with it!!

[blind-as-a-bat]

They have to supply a true copy of YOUR original agreement and a signature box with your signature in it as well as the other prescribed terms or the alleged agreement is unenforceable. They will say anything if they think they can get away with it!!

 

 

3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument

or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act

shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy--

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor,

hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the

Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed

agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an

agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of

the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

[(d) in the case of any copy of an executed agreement given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act for fixedsum

credit, or under section 78(1) for running-account credit, under which a person takes any articles in pawn, any

description of the article taken in pawn.]

 

Im sorry pinky but to actully comply with a CCA reqest they dont have to incllude the sig box

 

The question you need to ask is why did they choose not too, when it states "MAY" be omitted

[Pinky69]

So where are they going to put the debtor's signature???? because under Sections 61 and 127 (3) of the CCA 1974 the debtor's signature MUST be on the agreement. If it wasn't you could easily argue that you never signed any agreement. This reply that they do not need to include a signature box would be an indication to me that they don't have a signed agreement.

[dpick]

Hi I agree pinky it indicates to me that they do not have any agreement or a unenforceable agreement but I am sorry to say that Banks etc are getting away with this to comply with a CCA request that is why I now send a full sar to any creditor that I want a copy of the agreement. Under DPA they have to supply a full copy of the agreement. I have found that while three creditors could comply with CCA request but under DPA they produced no agreements.

 

dpick

[tosh1]

subbing

[B3rty]

3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy--

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

 

(d) in the case of any copy of an executed agreement given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act for fixed sum credit, or under section 78(1) for running-account credit, under which a person takes any articles in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

 

Many debt collection agencies will send copy agreements as per the letter of the law* (SI 1983/1557). This will be a copy from their records of what the agreement should look like with out the signature boxes.

 

This is not a copy of the signed application form (which is what you want) and if this comes with a copy of the terms and conditions at the time the application was submitted plus the current terms and conditions along with a statement of the account they have complied with a s.77.78 request.

 

This is useful for the debt collection agencies as they have complied with the s.78 request and will continue to harass for money, however it’s often a sign that they do not have a copy of the original agreement as these are often not compliant or not even kept.

 

You will need to use another method to obtain a copy of the signed agreement using a subject access request (Subject Access Request) under the data protection act

 

A subject access request gives you the right to see all information and copies of documents’ held by companies, this costs £10 and takes 40 days so it’s a longer process but gives you all the information they hold on you.

[B3rty]

This is the letter I use

 

[quote

 

 

Date

 

 

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxx (or multiple numbers if more than one account)

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998 9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Your name

Name

[Misterzeus]

Glad to see you've come back for advice dash!

 

I totally agree with B3rty, S.A.R them!

 

Regards

 

Mrs Z

[blind-as-a-bat]

There is another thing you can do, or check, and thats the content of what they have sent you.

 

first get a copy of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, notici it was Changed in may 2005, notably the content and wording of schedule 2.

 

now if your supposed agreement preceeds may 2005 the wording of what must be included may be greatly differant, but one of the biggest give aways is if it has a term titled "Missing Payments" that goes on to say 'Missing payments could have severe consiquences and make obtaining credit more difficult'

 

now only agreemants post may 2005 would HAVE to include that statemant (subject to a transitional period) so if you are looking at an agreement that you would have signed in say 2003, but that is quoted, it is not a true copy of what you would have signed as the wording for that couldnt have even ben known in 2003

 

Also a few "true copy's" they send dont have your right to cancel details in them, again the wording for that changed in 2005 also, so that can be used to catch them out.

 

Remember it has to b an exact copy of what you would hae signed, if it does not comply to the regs at the time of signing, the one you signed would not have, so they would have a possibly incorrectly exicuted agreement, and a valid reason to hold the account in dispute

[B3rty]

However the aim really is to try and get a copy of the document signed as this enables you to verify whether its enforcable or not so A Subject Access Request is always the best route to go for this rather then a s.78. request.

 

Great point above though and the link is here for the revised SI

 

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004

Edited January 18, 2009 by B3rty

[dashforcash]

When making the subject access request can one state that until such time as received the account is in dispute because "... I believe that whilst these monies may be due your agreement is unenforceable."

 

Just to slow them down.

[hillards]

If I sent a CCA request and were to be provided with the version without signature box I would be very tempted to respond saying that I did not accept this as a true copy and that I expect their next communication to be an invitation to discuss the matter with a judge, otherwise don't bother me again.

 

Yes, a SAR would be a better option, as long as it is specified that you require true copies of ALL information they hold, which should also include transcripts of any conversation held by telephone, screen notes from the operatives you may have spoken to, and whatever else they may be holding to uphold their claim.

[Thatch007]

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies

So they say they can exclude the signature box etc.

But the above relates to an executed agreement. Surely if they are going to rely on the fact that it is or they have an executed agreement, they could simply provide it.

Further might they actually even have to supply the executed agreement anyway?

I'm not really sure what the words (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies

mean, do the words "other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement", actually mean that it does not apply, and that in that case you can't exclude or leave out the details. or does that mean that they have to supply something with the date of signature of the debtor on a cancellable executed agreement, which would in effect mean they would have to show a copy of an executed agreement anyway.

 

Confused, I am.

[2Grumpy]

I am in the position of having been supplied a reconstructed CCA that is obviously of the wrong vintage.

 

The bank has said that this satisfies the CCA requirement so I should pay up

 

I have said that it is obviously not a true copy of my CCA & if they demand money based on what they have supplied having satisfied the CCA requirement then that would be attempted fraud (or fraud if I did make a payment).

 

So far all that has happened is that they have sent it to a DCA who has run up against a brick wall

[Pinky69]

What they have written is a load of drivel. If they a copy of an enforceable agreement, they would send one. All this about signature boxes is bluff and they know it. Pen pushers shouldn't try to be too smart - they will give them selves splinters.