citi cards can anyone help

[dollydimples]

hi can anyone help me i wrote to citi cards as per the template on this site requesting a signed copy of my credit agreement on 13th october 08 ,they replied on the 13 november 08 .Firstly i was under the impression they had 10 working days to reply .Secondly they state they regret to inform me that section 78 CCA 1974 does not require CitiFinancial to provide me with a "copy of the executed agreement" as defined by the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983.The letter then goes on to say the obligation to provide you with that document is fulfilled by the provision of the terms and conditions,which are suppied to customers upon reissue or issue of their card, being printed on the card carrier. we enclose a copy of the terms and conditions for your account. this is an industry standard document and conforms to the regulations.I have sent them the second letter from this site before recieving there letter .What are my next steps if any.

[maroondevo52]

Hi, dollydimples.

 

I'll move this thread to the appropriate Forum, hopefully you'll get some help in there.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[silverfox1961]

hiya,

I have just printed off the nescessary pages of CCA1974 and section 78 states that:

"The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of XXX, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to init, together with a statement by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,--

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount,if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

©the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

 

It clearly states that so where Citi get off saying the don't have to is beyond me.

 

fox

[dollydimples]

cheers 4 that mate thought i might have been right im now gonna send the second letter to them.

[the winkler 72]

any news dolly?

[dollydimples]

no new news as yet one can only wait :?

[Enron]

Standard fob off letter.

 

Had clarification through from the OFT describing exactly what is required to fulfil an s78(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 request.

 

What is necessary are Terms & Conditions from the time the account was opened, and the statutory content credit limit etc - which would be a copy of the executed agreement you signed, though as par the regulations they are allowed to ommit Name, Address and Signature/Signature box.

 

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/1-8.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/Image2.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/Image3.jpg

 

These cannot be substituted with a seperate document titled Terms & Conditions from a later period.

 

Having this exact problem with Citi, they have not fulfilled the request and are enforcing an agreement against me - including enterring a default.

 

Gonna make a further complaint to the OFT, and get my MP involved in this if Citi's response is not satisfactory.

[dollydimples]

no news from citi cards today either guess it is awaiting game

[Enron]

Update, a little clarification, Terms & Conditions will suffice in a s78(1) Consumer Credit Act request if the agreement has been lost, however the agreement would have to be prior to 1985 for this to be valid.

 

If an agreement is post 1985 then they have to provide a copy of the executed agreement or s78(6) becomes active.

 

However as I believe you'll find, Citi do whatever they want..... just waiting for a reply from them re my sitution as i'm a number of steps ahead of you in the same circumstance. Will let you know.

[dollydimples]

hi got a letter from citi well an information sheet with office of fair trading on the top then it goes on to say arrears and dont ignore the problem do i now contact the finicial ombudsman service as they have not followed by request for a credit agreement or what do i do next

[Enron]

Theres a long waiting list with the Financial Ombudsman Service, and from the people on here that have gone that route..... Citi have simply decided to ignore the FOS as a means of resolution.

 

Therefore what i'd suggest is contacting your local trading standards department - if Citi have ignored your CCA request, and continue to charge interest plus put your account into a state of arrears they are breaking the law whilst s78(6) Consumer Credit Act is active. As par the OFT clarification to me, if the request is not fulfilled "the creditor cannot enforce the agreement at all with or without a court order."

 

You should be able to find your local Trading Standards either through your council, or through here: Trading Standards Central - Trading Standards and Consumer Protection information for the UK

 

Terms & Conditions fulfil such a request if the agreement is taken out prior to 1985 and the executed agreement is lost.

 

In this case Citi are under a duty to provide a copy of the executed agrement i.e. the statutory text including credit limit - though the name/address and signature box maybe ommitted. This should additionally include terms & conditions of the time the agreement was made, and current terms & conditions.

 

I would also suggest making a complaint to the Office Of Fair Trading, that Citi continue to force the agreement against you despite having no legal entitlement once they are in default of an s78(1) Consumer Credit Act request.

 

Enquiries Unit

Office of Fair Trading

Fleetbank House

2-6 Salisbury Square

London, EC4Y 8JX.

 

The OFT cannot intervene in individual cases, but will collectively take action on complaints if there are a number...... so worth doing.

 

I'm currently waiting on replies from Citi, Call Credit and Experian with regards to Citi having no legal entitlement to have added interest/penalty charges and continue to update my credit file after receiving clarification from the OFT.... so will keep you posted.

 

Clarification below:

 

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/1-8.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/Image2.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/Image3.jpg

 

If the above do not play ball, will be getting my MP involved and commencing proceedings.

 

So lots of stuff to consider.

[dollydimples]

hi everyone thanks for your thoughts concerning citi cards but im still no further .In fact they have sent me a payment slip so i rang them today to remind them that they are at default on this account due to the fact they have not sent me a true copy of the signed agreement and the full terms and condition that applied at the time the credit was taken out . well got fobbed off by the lady who said no letters had been recieved , but she went rather quiet when i said it has been recieved because i have recieved a letter stating that the cca does not require them to send me what i requested i reminded her that citi have actually committed an offence by refusal of my request because of the time limit first letter requesting credit agreement was sent 14/10/08 a second letter stating i do not acknowledge the debt they are trying to enforce was sent 3/11/08 and the third letter 24/11/08 an acknowledgement letter which stated they do not have to supply me with what i ask for .All the letters i sent to them was recorded delivery i reminded her of this . She then went down the route of the debt will be taken over and it must have fell on deaf ears when i continued to say i am not at fault, citi is they defaulted i have a right to request the credit agreement copy which citi are trying to enforce i then reminded her that trying to intimidate me would not work either , she then said i had an reduced payment plan and i have defaulted she then had to be reminded that being on a reduced payment plan does not affect my statuary right as a consumer in the end i said if you take me to court you citi cards would have to produce what is a enforceable credit agreement in front of the judge now either you have not got an enforceable credit agreement or you need new legal help i left it in her hands to look for my credit agreement and send a copy of it with all the right terms and conditions when it was taken out .think i should write to trading standards and the office of fair trading as i think the intimidateing will begin can anyone help with my next step or has anyone else had the same trouble why is it so hard to make them understand such a simple request i have recorded the conversation on my moblie phone in case i needed it for future thanks

[silverfox1961]

Hi again. Been a few days.

Don't you just love it when you can put them on the back foot. This sudden surge of power is intoxicating:D

Good for you on recording the conversation.

You could keep reminding them of their obligations but there really is no need. The account is in dispute and they shouldn't be chasing you. If you haven't complained to citi I would WRITE and get their complaints procedure and of course complain to TS too

 

fox

[MARTIN3030]

The criminal offence aspect was removed from statute and replaced,so its no longer a criminal offence,but any debt still remains unenforceable in the absence of them complying.

Only a Court can order the debt as enforceable.

 

I think maybe an idea now to turn up the heat.Did you by the way send them the 1.00 fee for the CCA ?

and did they return it or not ?

 

I have a nice letter somewhere which will address all the points.I will have a look for it.

[Enron]

I think its best that we stay in contact as we seem to be going down the same road.

 

It is likely that Citi will completely ignore their legal duty (as in my case), and follow their set procedure.... this will include chasing you for arrears through letter and phone, and eventually enterring a default against your credit file.

 

There are about 3-4 of us in this same boat from CAG, and I have made the OFT aware that Citi are enforcing agreements without any legal entitlement in my correspondence of two days ago.

 

There is always the possibilty that they could provide a copy of your executed agreement, but we will cross that bridge when and if we come to it. A copy of Terms & Conditions will not be sufficent to complete a CCA request.

 

I do have an interesting development though, as part of pre-action protocols for court action if you request under Civil Procedure Rules Part 31 - they have to provide you a copy of materials you request complete with all the details; name. address, signature etc. However it is probably likely that they would simply ignore it, and it would have to go to court to gain their compliance.

 

Letters on the way to Trading Standards and my MP, and will be contacting the FSA because I believe this matter to be serious.

 

Though its seperate, it should be noted that the FSA fined Egg (now owned by CIti) £721,000, with a sliding upscale to £6.5 million because of their selling of PPI insurace.

[pt2537]

I think its best that we stay in contact as we seem to be going down the same road.

 

It is likely that Citi will completely ignore their legal duty (as in my case), and follow their set procedure.... this will include chasing you for arrears through letter and phone, and eventually enterring a default against your credit file.

 

There are about 3-4 of us in this same boat from CAG, and I have made the OFT aware that Citi are enforcing agreements without any legal entitlement in my correspondence of two days ago.

 

There is always the possibilty that they could provide a copy of your executed agreement, but we will cross that bridge when and if we come to it. A copy of Terms & Conditions will not be sufficent to complete a CCA request.

 

I do have an interesting development though, as part of pre-action protocols for court action if you request under Civil Procedure Rules Part 31 - they have to provide you a copy of materials you request complete with all the details; name. address, signature etc. However it is probably likely that they would simply ignore it, and it would have to go to court to gain their compliance.

 

Letters on the way to Trading Standards and my MP, and will be contacting the FSA because I believe this matter to be serious.

 

Though its seperate, it should be noted that the FSA fined Egg (now owned by CIti) £721,000, with a sliding upscale to £6.5 million because of their selling of PPI insurace.

Yes you are quite correct Enron

 

CPR 31.16 (3)(d) states

 

Disclosure before proceedings start

 

31.16

 

(1) This rule applies where an application is made to the court under any Act for disclosure before proceedings have started1.

 

 

 

(2) The application must be supported by evidence.

 

 

 

(3) The court may make an order under this rule only where –

(a) the respondent is likely to be a party to subsequent proceedings;

 

(b) the applicant is also likely to be a party to those proceedings;

 

 

 

© if proceedings had started, the respondent’s duty by way of standard disclosure, set out in rule 31.6, would extend to the documents or classes of documents of which the applicant seeks disclosure; and

 

(d) disclosure before proceedings have started is desirable in order to –

(i) dispose fairly of the anticipated proceedings;

 

(ii) assist the dispute to be resolved without proceedings; or

 

(iii) save costs.

 

 

 

(4) An order under this rule must –

(a) specify the documents or the classes of documents which the respondent must disclose; and

 

(b) require him, when making disclosure, to specify any of those documents –

(i) which are no longer in his control; or

 

(ii) in respect of which he claims a right or duty to withhold inspection.

 

 

 

 

 

(5) Such an order may –

 

 

(a) require the respondent to indicate what has happened to any documents which are no longer in his control; and

 

(b) specify the time and place for disclosure and inspection.

 

 

You can apply to the court for an order, but you must have given the other side a clear chance to disclose the document to you and you need toi have set out clearly why you want it "To assess if the agreement is properly executed" I would suggest is a good starting point followed by the obvious "and to allow for you to seek a declaration as to the rights of parties under the agrement pursuant to s142(1) CCA 1974"

 

 

 

 

 

the other side may try to scare you with advising that they will allow you inspection but with an order for their costs,

 

this is a scare tactic, they are able to claim costs this is true but there are some good cases which you can throw in to negate costs

Black and others v Sumitomo and others [2001] EWCA Civ 1819 and SES Contracting Limited and others v UK Coal Plc and others [2007] EWCA Civ 791

 

both deal with costs and in my opinion fall on the side of the consumer in discovery applications

 

so if citi dont want to play voluntarily then MAKE EM by order of the court

[dollydimples]

The criminal offence aspect was removed from statute and replaced,so its no longer a criminal offence,but any debt still remains unenforceable in the absence of them complying.

Only a Court can order the debt as enforceable.

 

I think maybe an idea now to turn up the heat.Did you by the way send them the 1.00 fee for the CCA ?

and did they return it or not ?

 

I have a nice letter somewhere which will address all the points.I will have a look for it.

yes i did enclose the one pound fee in postal orders and you guessed they have not returned it .i would be greatful of any letter that would maybe help cheers for that.how and when do i apply to the courts ?

[dollydimples]

hi thanks for your responses i have now wrote to the oft and i want to write to the fos but i need a template and an addressanyone able to help me .

[wednesday1867]

FOS Address

 

The Financial Ombudsman Service

South Quay Plaza

183 Marsh Wall

London

E14 9SR

[MARTIN3030]

Dolly its better to actually call the FOS.0845 080 1800.

Briefly say what your complaint is.

They will then allocate you a complaints reference number,and you will get the forms to fill out and send back to them.This is better than writing a letter since you would only have to do it all again after getting the forms.

Heres how it works;

 

You call them and request a complaints pack.

They take a few details.

They send out the forms to you,and at the same time write to Citi giving them 7 days to respond to you.They wont take further action until you inform them.

Send the completed form back,along with copies of any communications between you and City,also copy of your claim docs/charges etc.

 

Once you hae a reply back from Citi,you can then either recontact the FOS or wait for Citi to comply.

[dollydimples]

i have rung the fos to day they are sending me a complaints pack out but i was a bit worried as the call taker did have concerns as to when the card was taken out pre 2007 .he also said that the fact i was paying it could be shown as acknowledgement of the debt and they may not have to produce the credit agreement because it was taken out before 2007 and not after that . has anyone got any comments on this one, i have still not heard from them after the last telephone call stating that it was them that were at default and no payment would be made on the acccount until they send me what i am asking them for the signed copy of the agreement and the terms and conditions at the time the agreenent was made. Any help will be much appreciated am i trying to get blood out of a stone here lol:?:

[Enron]

Terms & Conditions can be used to fulfil a s78(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 request if the executed agreement was signed during or prior to 1985.

 

For executed agreements signed post 1985, but before April 2007 the institution has to provide the executed agreement to include all the prescribed terms and a number of other items. Without all the prescribed terms or a number of other items as outlined by the OFT to be included in an executed agreement, the executed agreement will be unenforceable under law... i.e. a court will not be able to enforce the agreement.

 

As such you are in a strong position if the agreement was taken out betwen 1986 and March 2007.

 

For executed agreement signed April 2007 or after it is upto a courts descretion as to whether enforce the agreement.

 

Regardless however is that if the executed agreement was signed after 1986 the creditor is obliged to provide a copy within the statutory time limits, in this instance 12 days + 2 days after the request being made, if they fail then they fall into default - a state where they are not legally entitled to enforce the agreement with or without a court order.

 

Any problems in securing a copy of the executed agreement, then I would suggest contacting your local trading standards department to obtain Citi's compliance - though I would suggest to TS that you require the document to be supplied to yourself to be compliant with s78(1).

[mkandy]

What impact would there be if the account was now closed?

[Enron]

The CCA request is between the creditor and debtor.... so dont think you would be able to do if its settled, would suggest an SAR under the data protection act.

 

If its passed to a DCA then submit the s78(1) CCA request to them.

[dollydimples]

hi there i think the card was first taken out 09/03 only because i have found an old card and thats the valid from date. how would i find out if this is correct .if the answer to that is ask citi what do you think the chances are of them telling me !Cheers for your feedback eron much appreciated .