secured loan wasn't paid off when my house was sold Now getting DCA letters Please help

[miksu]

I really need some advice

 

My business went into voluntary insolvencey and my house was sold may 07 as a result. I presumed a secured business bank loan (HSBC )was repaid at this tme ( i'd given my solicitor written details of this debt ) 4 months later the bank contacted me for payment

To cut a long story short i ended up with my conveyancing solcitor writing to me advising she was forwarding the matter to her insurance company. I'd sought legal help and they had advised she was negligent and that we would take this up with the law society

 

This was 18 months ago I've heard nothing fromthe bank until today. i have received a threatening letter from a debt collection agency persuing the sum. I don't understand why now? I thought this had been dealt with. The bank have had my mobile number for 18 months ( its not changed ) and i've had my post re directed via royal mail for 15 months and heard nothing

 

Isn't that the point of a secured loan ? That its secured against your property and guaranteed to be taken at source from the equity.

Please help I am worried sick and would be grateful for any advice

 

NB the guarantee was signed 2001 and again ( i think ) 2003 to increase the level as the business grew . It was just done via hsbc business banking advisor with no ppi

 

Thanks in advance and sorry this is long

 

Miksu

[OLIVE.FAMILY]

Hi there and welcome to the forum.

When you sold your previous property did you take out a new mortgage or are you now renting??

 

I would contact the solicitors involved to ask what has happened and WRITE to the DCA and explain the situation and simply tell them that you will keep them informed.

 

olives xx

[miksu]

Hi Olives

 

Thanks so much for taking time to reply.

 

i'm renting now There was enough equity to cover this loan and more when the house was sold. without going into loads of detail my ex had consolidated various personal loans against our property also ( without my permission but water under the bridge and not the issue now...)

 

When the bank contacted me 4 months after we'd sold the property saying this secured business loan hadn't been paid i got straight onto the solicitor who did my conveyaning to find out what the hell had happened. She denied all knowledge of it I sought legal advice who told me she was negligent and its her responsibility to pay all the charges against the property before releasing the equity i managed to get copies of my files from her land registry etc and it was clearly listed

I phoned the guy who used to be my personal business banker at hsbc and explained that it was down to my solicitors negligence and i no longer had any means of paying this sum and had thought it had been paid It was after all secured charge against the property and there was enough left in the pot to cover it . He had never heard of a situation like it. the whole point of it being secured is that people can't get there hands the equity and then not pay up!

 

I explained i didn't have a fixed address at that time but was getting my mail forwarded via royal mail( did for 15 months ) and ensured he had my mobile number which hasn't changed

 

My conveyancing solicitor then sent me a letter saying she was forwarding it to her insurers And i heard no more of it till this week nearly 1 1/2 years later- the letter from the DCA.

 

So in short my solicitor knows it wasn't paid and that i wasn't at all happy Having had a letter saying she would forward it to her insurers and hearing nothing from the bank I just prayed for the best

 

I hope this extra info is useful

Thank you again Any advice is so much appreciated as I'm not in a position to pay for legal advice

 

Miksu

x

[Bona]

The debt should have been paid at the time from the proceeds of the sale by your solicitor if it wasnt then your solicitor is liable unless of course they never put a charge on the deeds if thast was the case then your solicitor would not have had to pay it

 

I suggest tomorrow you check at the land registry I think you can do it on line and see if the bank put a charge on when you know that we can deal

what to do next

 

But in the meantine write back to the dca stating you do NOT acknowledge the debt

[miksu]

Thanks so much for replying

 

I'm going to get onto that first thing tomorrow

 

I'll post update

Really appreciate your feedback I'm absolutely sick with worry over this

 

Miksu

[Justhadenough]

Hi,

 

You say there was enough equity in the sale of the property to pay the secured borrowings, did you receive the money? Did you know that there was more left over than you had calculated?

 

The solicitor gives an undertaking to discharge all secured debts on the deeds, However what consequential loses have you had because of this non action by the solicitor. It is not for the Bank to pursue your solicitor for the shortfall, they will chase you or the DCA will.

 

I would copy the letter from the DCA and forward it to your solicitor by Recorded Delivery along with the letter stating that she was sending it to her PI Company.

 

Also put in the letter that you are giving her the opportunity to put this right before you go to the Law Society with a complaint.

[miksu]

Hi,

 

You say there was enough equity in the sale of the property to pay the secured borrowings, did you receive the money? Did you know that there was more left over than you had calculated?

 

The solicitor gives an undertaking to discharge all secured debts on the deeds, However what consequential loses have you had because of this non action by the solicitor. It is not for the Bank to pursue your solicitor for the shortfall, they will chase you or the DCA will.

 

I would copy the letter from the DCA and forward it to your solicitor by Recorded Delivery along with the letter stating that she was sending it to her PI Company.

 

Also put in the letter that you are giving her the opportunity to put this right before you go to the Law Society with a complaint.

 

There was enough money to cover the charge. And yes i did receive it. I wasn't able to calculate exactly what was left over as my ex had consolidated his personal debt against the property ( without my consent but thats a whole other story... and not now relevant ) I didn't have a clue He had 'fessed up before the sale went through but when i received more than i expected I didn't really know what had occured .

 

I'll be honest i'd lost so much I wasn't asking any questions

 

Another point is that although the conveyancing solicitor had my forwarding address, knew I had seperated from my ex and was paying the remaining equity into MY account, she only sent 1 copy of the payment statement document ( i forget what its called ), to my ex not me So its not even as if I had a piece of paper that listed what had been left and what had been paid so i could flag up the error myself. I was having really bad panic attacks as a result of losing the business, partner and everything so wasn't exactly up to speed ( i was signed of as the result of a breakdown for 12 months )

 

Providing I'm able to show that there was a charge against the property for this debt, am I able to insist the my solicitor was negligent and her insurers must pay?

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me

All help is very much appreciated

 

Miksu

[Bona]

Yes

[miksu]

I've not had time to go and look at the land registry today yet but i'm pretty damn sure (99.9%) there was a charge.

1/ it was a secured loan and remember when i signed paper work being told the house was the guarantee

 

2/ When i received a letter from the bank asking for repayment 4 months after house was sold, i called the bank and they told me it was a bizarre situation they'd never had before as they still had a charge against the deeds despite me no longer owning the house

 

3/When my conveyancing solicitor tried to wriggle out of it by saying i'd not told her about the debt so she didn't know she had to pay it (which was untrue - i'd written to her), i sought legal advice and they advised me to ask for my accounts on file which would show all the charges against the house When i asked for this she sent a letter saying she was refering it to her insurers ( this was last year...) and that she could confirm that the title had been successfully registered in the new owners names and assuring me that they would not be affected by this error

 

Thanks again I really hope your right

Miksu

[miksu]

The debt should have been paid at the time from the proceeds of the sale by your solicitor if it wasnt then your solicitor is liable unless of course they never put a charge on the deeds if thast was the case then your solicitor would not have had to pay it

 

I suggest tomorrow you check at the land registry I think you can do it on line and see if the bank put a charge on when you know that we can deal

what to do next

 

But in the meantine write back to the dca stating you do NOT acknowledge the debt

 

I'm online looking at the land registry before i pay for the document I wanted to check something

 

Will the document just show the current owners and any charges they have against it? I'm really looking for the document of when i was the owner and the charges against it at this time ( to prove my conveyancing solicitor knew the secured loan was there and she should have settled it before releasing the equity)

 

I don't want to pay nd it just show the current owners details I've already been told by my solicitor that the charge had been taken off the house so the new owners aren't affected

 

does any one know anything about the landregistry documents?

how you'd get the details for the previous owner? or whether everything is all on the current document?

 

Sorry this is long again...

Miksu

[Bona]

not sure I believe it shows all registered titles

[miksu]

ok I've paid to down load the document from land registry but its as I suspected It details the current owners info and their charge against the property.

 

Should i write to DCA saying that they should contact my conveyancing solicitor for payment and send it recorded delivery?

Any tips on the wording?

 

Miksu

[KJD]

does any one know anything about the landregistry documents?

how you'd get the details for the previous owner? or whether everything is all on the current document?

 

I had to do this recently with a dispute with Southern Water . It was a bit of a work-up but you can get the information you need. I telephoned the office that deals with my area (it'll be on their website) and explained what I needed. There is a form you can download and it requires very specific details about the dates. Maybe I was lucky, but the lady I spoke to talked me through the form so I could fill it out while still on the phone. Sent it off with a cheque for £8.00 and got the printouts back within a couple of days. I'll have a look for the form now...

[KJD]

Sorry, will have to check at work tomorrow as home pc playing silly b's...

[miksu]

KJD

 

Thanks for that

 

Miksu

[KJD]

Sorry about the delay...

 

The form you need is a HC1 - 'Application for copies of historical edition(s) of the register / title plan held in electronic form', which you can download from the Land registry site. The date required on page 2 is really important, so as mentioned before, give the office which covers the address a call and see if they can help.

 

Good Luck

[miksu]

Very much appreciated Going to have a go with that now

 

Miksu

[miksu]

Ok now this is getting beyond a joke

 

Please help me here people. I was all set to use the land registry documents to prove the solicitor should have paid off the secured loan before exchange Now I just don't know what to do

 

Despite signing for a secured business loan , despite being told by business loan people AFTER sale of my property that a charge existed against the house still ...

 

I've got the info back from Land Registry showing there is NO SECURED CHARGE!!! and whats more, never was

 

It never existed - its not there ( although I am now being chased by DCA's for the amount )

 

I smell a huge rat here...

 

We were told by the loan providers themselves there was still an outstanding charge against the sold property a few months after we sold

When i addressed this with my conveyancing solicitor, I also wrote that I was extremely upset that the new owners had been unable to register the deeds properly etc etc because of this charge not being settled correctly.

 

When she wrote back saying she was forwarding it to her insurers she re assured me that they had now managed to register the title etc properly for the new owners and this should no longer be a concern

 

But..... this charge apparently doesn't exist And whats more - NEVER HAS??!!!

 

 

Am pulling my hair out here If it turns out the bank "forgot" to properly secure the debt against the property then i would say fair enough then, my solicitor wasn't negligent . If it wasn't listed she can't be expected to settle it. But I was lead to believe from both the initial loan, the loan provider and the solicitor that there had been a charge registered and whats more it was still there after I sold

 

Thought from any of you guys really really appreciated

Sorry this is so long again

 

Miksu

[Bona]

Ok I think you need to get all the paperwork together and sit tight telling the DCA that it was a secured loan on the property enclosing lettters from bank stateing that it was to be sercured, and that if it wasnt paid out of the proceeds of the house sale its the solicitors fault you do not acknowledge the debt and to leave you alone

I would also write to the top bods at HSCB saying the same thing enclosing documentation copying to our solicitor and telling them it is not your problem eventually some one will come back and tell you that there was no charge and I think that is when the fun will start because I dont think you can be held liable.

!. if you told the solicitor that there was a charge and she could not find it so she did not pay you but didnt tell you this shes still negligant and if the Bank had a contract with you for a secured charge and then forgot to secure it thats there fault

[miksu]

right Bona I'm going to do just that

 

will keep you informed

thanks again

Miksu

[bish]

Hi I would also ask HSBC for a copy of the original agreement, do you have a copy of the original agreement ?. Having quickly read through your post, and being no expert on these things, If the land registry shows no such agreement registered on the property then one does not exist, unless the provider or DCA can provide documentry evidence to the contry then bang goes their claim against you I think ?. When mistakes are made that in a court of law would result in the claim being thrown out, the people who made the mistake tend to act like electricity or water. Take the path of least resistance, thats you, had a hard time of it and have no knowledge of the law. Who would you pick on a solicitor or an every day consumer. My point is ask for copies of everything, my gut feeling is this is not down to you, and they know it, without documentry evidence they have no case against you. Appears to me that your solicitor is at fault. Again a fine example of the presumption that all profesional people like solicitors, doctors, social workers, teachers, BANKERS, police, and many many others are never wrong and can never be wrong. YES THEY CAN. Having said that it could be that HSBC made a Boo Boo in not securing the loan against the property, their problem not yours. Concidering the mess that the whole world is in at the moment why not take a leaf out of their book and take advantage if you can. Best wishes.

 

Regards bish.

[hippyhattie]

Hi

 

We are in a very similar situation with welcome finance....we took out, in september 06, a secured loan of £20,000.

 

Last November we sold the property we lived and are now renting.Our solicitor at the time told us that when she checked land registry details the welcome finance loan did not appear as a charge against our property, the only charge was from our mortgage company.

 

The welcome finance loan was not repaid from the proceeds and we have continued to repay the loan at the agreed repayment of £302.00 per month, until september when we asked them if we could make reduced pyts for 6 months due to our circumstances...this they have refused and although we have made the reduced pyts we keep getting harrassing calls at home and work.

 

My question is that if it was a secured loan (i have copy of agreement stating it was ) and welcome forgot to put the charge on, is it legally enforcable?

 

Laura

[Bona]

Yes as you have acknowledged it and are paying you borrowed the money the only difference is they canty make you sell your house to pay it off so just pay what you can when you can it wont go away im afraid if they start getting difficult just tell them they ballsed up and they dont have a lenght to stand on

[bish]

This is a real tricky one as with the original post.

 

 

The way I look at it is if you make a mistake within the agreement you are punished financially.

However if the provider of the agreement makes a mistake there is no down side, you just keep paying.

 

 

Is that fair. ultimatly it would be for a judge to decide.

 

 

My argument with loan providers, banks, credit card providers, is not what I borrowed, I must pay that back,

what I object to is being ripped off in the process.

 

 

Do you think you have been ripped off ?, or has a mistake been made that you may be able to take advantage of ?.

 

 

What have the above mentioned providers done in the same situation, have they been honest ?, leave that for the judges.

This now becomes, as I believe, a question of morality.

 

 

Is it moral to behave in the same way as the provider of your agreement.

 

 

I think that it is OK to try and get out of any duty you have to an agreement if the provider of said agreement is still trying to rip off its customers,

as is the case for me.

 

 

However If providers are abiding by the rules and regulations then you have no option but to repay.

I would like to say that in my opinion most providers are still not abiding by the recomendations of the OFT.

So if your case fits, either should determine your action.

 

 

It is hard to give advice as I am not an expert in such matters,

although I would say that if the secured loan was not attached to the property then there is a problem with the agreement.

 

 

You employ people and pay them a large amount of money to deal with this, why should you pay for their incompetence.

Again this would be for a judge to decide.

 

 

I must just say If I opporated as many of these so called soliciters, banks, and financial advicers had acted I would be out of a job very quickly.HTH.

 

Regards bish.

[miksu]

So,

 

I think my ex must have our copy of the original secured business loan

 

Should I write to HSBC and ask for a copy and also send the following to the DCA: ( please feel free to chip in with any alternative suggestion for this letter - )

 

 

Dear Sir

 

Refxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

The loan you refer to was a business loan secured against my property This property was sold in June 2007. I do not acknowledge this debt

If this debt was not settled at the time of sale then I refer you to my conveyancing solicitor

 

Please find a copy of a letter from them notifying me this matter was being refered to her insurance company

 

Yours sincerely

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Shall i keep it that simple?

or should i put more detail in? like a copy of a letter from conveyancing solicitor to HSBC stating that

 

"We were totally unaware of this charge which should surely be included in the original redemtion statement. ( nb our loan and mortgage were both with hsbc) Our clients have now sold the property and obviously the buyers CANNOT REGISTER THEIR TITLE WHILST YOUR CHARGE REMAINS REGISTERED"

 

Funny letter considering my search showed there was no charge and never was??? Could they have taken it off to cover themselves? I was certain it was a secured loan and I thought once I'd established the solicitor was negligent i could address this. I never thought for 1 min the charge wouldn't be listed! Is really odd because all concerned have called it such since day 1 and i under no illusions re the house guaranteeing the loan

 

 

Anyway I'll await your feedback on what to write and then get it posted to the DCA

 

Sooner the better please, had letter this am dated 20.11.08 (? ) saying they were preparing court papers against me:(

 

thanks in advance guys

Miksu

Edited December 1, 2008 by miksu
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