The future's bright - just not Orange.

[scotland-kiwi]

Greetings all!

 

My first post, but I wanted to get this off my chest and see if anyone can give some advice for a particularly frustrating problem I'm having with Orange.

 

Well over two years ago, I signed a Orange contract to get a phone and the "free" broadband which was on offer, I used the phone for personal use and the other mobile I had under contract (not with Orange) for business.

 

I ended up not using my Orange mobile very much, if at all - and I had no luck in getting the broadband configured on my phone (BT issue, another story)

 

So I waited out the contract period with Orange, and when time was up I called them and asked to disconnect.

 

I was told that was fine, but was asked if I would like a pay as you go SIM with the number ported to it - what the hell I thought - good emergency phone - something to keep in the car / spare.. whatever.

 

That was that - the new SIM turned up - the phone was canceled, all was good - well, at least that's what I thought.

 

About a month later, I recieved a Invoice from Orange for my monthly tariff charge - weird I thought.. must be a mistake.. so I ignored it.

 

A month went by, another invoice showed up, weird I thought, but this time I called them to ask why I was recieving invoices for a service I had cancelled.

 

The guy I spoke to seemed puzzled - he told me the service was still active and indeed he could see I'd asked for disconnection but since I had not inserted the new PAYG sim the phone had not been disconnected and was still active.

 

I asked for the phone to be disconnected and was told I needed to pay the balance to request disconnection, which (stupidly) I did - as I just wanted to end the contract and I never use the phone.

He took my money and processed the disconnection and said that would be that....

 

BUT

 

A month later - I recieved another invoice from Orange, I called them (after calming down) and explained the story so far, they seemed puzzled and said there was no disconnection note on the account "apart from my initial request" (my first attempt) and that I would need to settle the balance to disconnect.

 

As you can imagine, at this point I was quite angry, I stressed to the customer service rep that I did not see any point in paying the balance of the account when it was Orange's fault that it's not been disconnected - the rep really could not argue with this but said they had no proof that I had asked to disconnect.. etc etc.

 

Anyway!

 

I feel like I'm being held to Ransom by Orange, they keep sending bills, nasty letters and generally ignoring my correspondence to them, I've sent two letters to them, both registered delivery and they have not responded - only with template "We are concerned you are not paying" letters.

 

Can anyone suggest what I can do ?? They have already marked my credit file once (from the previous non paying) and I'm sure they will do it again.

 

I'm a nice guy, I pay my bills - on time too! this totally sucks and I can't believe the way I have been treated by them.. in contrast a while back I had an issue with my Vodafone contract and they refunded me over £600 !!!

 

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Kiwi. (of Scotland)

[legalpickle]

It seems like you need to enter the PAYG sim into your phone to deal with the disconnection. Have you done this yet?

 

I recommend you write a harsh letter of complaint to Orange threatening to sue them for the overpaid amounts and to seek an order to stop them from billing you or affecting your credit record.

 

If you draft the letter and post it here - minus any confidential details - then I'll try to proof it for you.

 

Please keep us posted.

 

Best of Luck.

[scotland-kiwi]

Hi Legalpickle,

 

Thanks so much for your kind words,

 

>It seems like you need to enter the PAYG sim into your phone to deal with >the disconnection. Have you done this yet?

 

 

No, I've not done this - I guess it's probably the best way to get this sorted, but I do find it infuriating that I need to insert the sim and then call them to register it just to disconnect my contract - I've been avoiding doing this - it's probably a stupid move but I'm stubborn and belligerent..

 

>I recommend you write a harsh letter of complaint to Orange threatening >to sue them for the overpaid amounts and to seek an order to stop them >from billing you or affecting your credit record.

>If you draft the letter and post it here - minus any confidential details - >then I'll try to proof it for you.

 

Thanks - I will do - they however do not seem to reply (or even open their mail) I think I was slightly confusing in my post in that I implied I got replies to my letters which is not the case, I've sent them letters and just get reminders and bills back - nothing actually acknowledging my letter of complaint.

 

Thanks for the help - I'll post my letter to them shortly.

 

Kind Regards,

[legalpickle]

Hi Legalpickle,

 

Thanks so much for your kind words,

 

>It seems like you need to enter the PAYG sim into your phone to deal with >the disconnection. Have you done this yet?

 

 

No, I've not done this - I guess it's probably the best way to get this sorted, but I do find it infuriating that I need to insert the sim and then call them to register it just to disconnect my contract - I've been avoiding doing this - it's probably a stupid move but I'm stubborn and belligerent..

 

>I recommend you write a harsh letter of complaint to Orange threatening >to sue them for the overpaid amounts and to seek an order to stop them >from billing you or affecting your credit record.

>If you draft the letter and post it here - minus any confidential details - >then I'll try to proof it for you.

 

Thanks - I will do - they however do not seem to reply (or even open their mail) I think I was slightly confusing in my post in that I implied I got replies to my letters which is not the case, I've sent them letters and just get reminders and bills back - nothing actually acknowledging my letter of complaint.

 

Thanks for the help - I'll post my letter to them shortly.

 

Kind Regards,

No offence, but you are being very stupid. If they have told you that's what you need to do, then why not do it? That could work against you in court proceedings! Also the result may be that the other line gets disconnected and the number does not move over.

 

I seriously recommend you do this NOW, to at least put a temporary stop on the matter. It could be that the only way they can stop billing you is by disconnecting the line which would render the pay-as-you-go SIM useless!

 

When you post a draft letter I'll try and proof it for you. I won't be online between 3pm today and latest Friday lunchtime though, possibly Thursday night.

[scotland-kiwi]

No offense taken.

 

The reason why I've not done this (yet) is because this is how the whole thing started...

 

According to Orange they should have informed me that I needed to register the SIM when I received it (last year) which they never did.

 

I do understand what you're saying, and when I get home tonight I'll dig out the handset and the sim and do the business.

 

I suppose I just feel frustrated that after asking them to disconnect the phone 5 times now, they just send me bills and give me excuses, it's not the right way to run a telecommunications company and I find it difficult to believe that all that's stopping them from billing me is my stubbornness in not activating the sim.. which I did not really want anyway.

 

Anyway thanks for all your help - I'll keep in touch.

[legalpickle]

No offense taken.

 

The reason why I've not done this (yet) is because this is how the whole thing started...

 

According to Orange they should have informed me that I needed to register the SIM when I received it (last year) which they never did.

 

I do understand what you're saying, and when I get home tonight I'll dig out the handset and the sim and do the business.

 

I suppose I just feel frustrated that after asking them to disconnect the phone 5 times now, they just send me bills and give me excuses, it's not the right way to run a telecommunications company and I find it difficult to believe that all that's stopping them from billing me is my stubbornness in not activating the sim.. which I did not really want anyway.

 

Anyway thanks for all your help - I'll keep in touch.

That's the way life is in this damned country. Sorry.

 

Post a draft letter - minus personal information - up here and I'll try to proof it for you. I understand you've sent other letters to them, but maybe the tone wasn't right, and if they didn't say that you'll be issuing court proceedings then you can't till you've told them about that.

[buzby]

Orange's tactic is questionable in the extreme - requesting a PAC code is taken by the industry as a recognised method of terminating a mobile contract. Orange's plan of sending a PAYG SIM card is simply a marketing exercise, if you have no intention of staying with Orange, then the last thing you want to do is continue the relationship - so if you gave valid notice of termination, then the fact they didn't is THEIR look out, not the subscriber.

 

What causes problem is most folk DON'T back up their request in writing - simply saying they want to leave and expecting the agent to do all the donkey work. This is when it all goes bad, as you have nothing to prove that you wished to terminate.

 

I'm aware of 4 users who all were made to jump through these hoops, and the all refused, with Orange attempting to state that the contract termination has NOT be requested. Each provided copy letters of termination sent to Bristol, and the accounts were closed. The moral is to always back everything up in writing, so there is no margin for error.

[legalpickle]

Orange's tactic is questionable in the extreme - requesting a PAC code is taken by the industry as a recognised method of terminating a mobile contract. Orange's plan of sending a PAYG SIM card is simply a marketing exercise, if you have no intention of staying with Orange, then the last thing you want to do is continue the relationship - so if you gave valid notice of termination, then the fact they didn't is THEIR look out, not the subscriber.

I agree but if the subscriber wants to keep the number the subscriber must use that PAC code within 30 days of it's issue. Lack of usage will result in either the contract remaining or the contract being terminated but the number going back into cyberspace.

The advantage of a replacement PAYG SIM with that number is that if the customer doesn't want to enter a new contract or go to the trouble of getting a new PAYG SIM, the customer has the number till the customer can be bothered to move.

 

What causes problem is most folk DON'T back up their request in writing - simply saying they want to leave and expecting the agent to do all the donkey work. This is when it all goes bad, as you have nothing to prove that you wished to terminate.

I agree.

 

I'm aware of 4 users who all were made to jump through these hoops, and the all refused, with Orange attempting to state that the contract termination has NOT be requested. Each provided copy letters of termination sent to Bristol, and the accounts were closed. The moral is to always back everything up in writing, so there is no margin for error.

The problem is that as soon as the account is closed the number is forfeited - unless it has been ported over or activated elsewhere. This is common across the industry.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Orange, I hate them with a passion, but just putting your comments in perspective.

[jody123]

I have a very similar problem to the above, I gave notice, they sent me a different numbered PAYG sim, then billed me for another two months. I haven't paid - Its only £52.35 - its the principle.

 

I cancelled, they didn't tell me I had to register the new PAYG sim to cancel the old contract, there was nothing with the sim to say it had to be registered, so I simply put it in the phone for emergencies. I'm not paying it. I have now been contracted by moorcroft - I have told them the account is in dispute and unless and until Orange prove they told me then they can swing for their money.

 

I'm currently considering DSAR ing them with a view to getting 18 months of call billing information....this alone will prove the phone wasn't used for the last 8 months of the 18 month contract.

 

ggrrrr I'm so cross about it all and if my credit rating is affected them I'm going legal because it is a diabolical tactic that orange are using....

[legalpickle]

I have a very similar problem to the above, I gave notice, they sent me a different numbered PAYG sim, then billed me for another two months. I haven't paid - Its only £52.35 - its the principle.

 

I cancelled, they didn't tell me I had to register the new PAYG sim to cancel the old contract, there was nothing with the sim to say it had to be registered, so I simply put it in the phone for emergencies. I'm not paying it. I have now been contracted by moorcroft - I have told them the account is in dispute and unless and until Orange prove they told me then they can swing for their money.

 

I'm currently considering DSAR ing them with a view to getting 18 months of call billing information....this alone will prove the phone wasn't used for the last 8 months of the 18 month contract.

 

ggrrrr I'm so cross about it all and if my credit rating is affected them I'm going legal because it is a diabolical tactic that orange are using....

Lack of usage is not sufficient proof. From what you say you were in contract for the last 8 months of the 18 month contract, which means you had to pay whether or not you used it, so this is irrelevant.

 

What you need to do is write them a harsh letter of complaint, as I have recommended to the OP.

 

You - and the OP - should also check your credit records and make sure Orange haven't damaged it. If they have you should include this information in your letter of complaint.

[jody123]

Lack of usage is not sufficient proof. From what you say you were in contract for the last 8 months of the 18 month contract, which means you had to pay whether or not you used it, so this is irrelevant.

.

 

Legalpickle you are absolutely right and hence why I continued to pay whilst still in contract.

 

The point is they sent a completely new sim, with an unconnected number, so there is no reason why they could not and should not have cancelled the contract at the end of the 18 month period when I advised of same.

 

I have now sent a drafted a letter with copies of my previous 2 letters putting the "debt" in dispute and copied in Orange's CEO, Northern Debt Recovery and Moorcroft who have been passed the account. As you suggest "Complaint" is mentioned.

 

I've argued that the letters from Moorcroft are tantamount to harassment, under the Administration of Justice, and protection from Harassment Acts, both 1970, and in breach of debt collection guidelines whilst an account is in dispute. Furthermore that I will take action against them for any damage to my credit rating - which is and always has been perfect - and asking for a deadlock letter to allow me to escalate to CISAS.

 

 

Jody

[legalpickle]

Legalpickle you are absolutely right and hence why I continued to pay whilst still in contract.

 

The point is they sent a completely new sim, with an unconnected number, so there is no reason why they could not and should not have cancelled the contract at the end of the 18 month period when I advised of same.

 

I have now sent a drafted a letter with copies of my previous 2 letters putting the "debt" in dispute and copied in Orange's CEO, Northern Debt Recovery and Moorcroft who have been passed the account. As you suggest "Complaint" is mentioned.

 

I've argued that the letters from Moorcroft are tantamount to harassment, under the Administration of Justice, and protection from Harassment Acts, both 1970, and in breach of debt collection guidelines whilst an account is in dispute. Furthermore that I will take action against them for any damage to my credit rating - which is and always has been perfect - and asking for a deadlock letter to allow me to escalate to CISAS.

 

 

Jody

It may be beneficial if you post a draft copy here so that we can proof it for you.

 

The letters from Moorcroft are not considered harrassment. The meaning of harrassment is quite different from one or two DCA letters.

 

Also, you shouldn't be asking for a deadlock letter but asking for the issue to be satisfactorily sorted.

 

Also, copying in Orange's CEO is useless.

 

Quite often people think they're being smart by writing loads of things they don't understand the real meaning of as they think it will scare the other side. In reality it makes the other side think the person is stupid.

[OrangePrimate]

Can i just point out that calls are monitored and that each and every time a payg sim is requested to transfer a number when cancelling a contract the instructions and the number to call are given. the calls are specifically monitored to make sure that happens. Also, when the sim pack arrives there are instructions, clearly stating that the conract number will not end until the number is transferred, and the number to call to get this done.

 

Often these instructions on the phone are forgotten, the leaflet that comes with the sim is not read and the payg sim is put into a phone and activated with a completely different number ( and it isnt quried at the time what happened to the contract number they wanted to keep?)

 

Majority of the time it is the subscriber that causes these issue, and CS will, dependant on how much abuse they are recieving at the time offer to waive part of the charges as goodwill. mostly it is demands for full waiver, sometimes even when the contract sim has continued to be used, if you can believe that!!

 

compromise is normally the preferable outcome with both parties shouldering the responsibility, but, and this is my own personal opinion, consumers seem to be under the impression they can never do, and will not admit, any wrong!!!

[buzby]

However it would be only fair to add that it is only Orange who use this tactic of making the customer leap another hurdle before they terminate or port. From what I have heard (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Orange will send a PAYG SIN to a terminating customer whether requested or not with the INVITATION to connect it.

 

This would be fine as far as it goes, but if the user simply has no interest in the old number, Orange will take this as a reason to let the contract roll on, leaving the customer to fight it out when the contract should have ended on the agreed date.

[legalpickle]

Can i just point out that calls are monitored and that each and every time a payg sim is requested to transfer a number when cancelling a contract the instructions and the number to call are given. the calls are specifically monitored to make sure that happens. Also, when the sim pack arrives there are instructions, clearly stating that the conract number will not end until the number is transferred, and the number to call to get this done.

In my experience this isn't always true. And I'm guessing that in the OP's experience he didn't get any letter clearly stating that unless it was in some obscure place in print that can't be read without two magnifying glasses!

 

Also not all calls are recorded by Orange. I know this first hand. It may be what they tell you, but I recorded several calls I had with Orange and they claimed they couldn't find them and then told me that not all calls are recorded, they are randomly selected and some calls of newer staff are monitored by more senior staff, but it is complete utter nonsense that all calls are monitored or recorded - which are two different things by the way!

 

Often these instructions on the phone are forgotten, the leaflet that comes with the sim is not read and the payg sim is put into a phone and activated with a completely different number ( and it isnt quried at the time what happened to the contract number they wanted to keep?)

 

Majority of the time it is the subscriber that causes these issue, and CS will, dependant on how much abuse they are recieving at the time offer to waive part of the charges as goodwill. mostly it is demands for full waiver, sometimes even when the contract sim has continued to be used, if you can believe that!!

I doubt that. But either way it would be fair as compensation should also be due.

 

compromise is normally the preferable outcome with both parties shouldering the responsibility, but, and this is my own personal opinion, consumers seem to be under the impression they can never do, and will not admit, any wrong!!!

No customer should ever shoulder responsibility for the incompetence of Orange. This is a consumer forum, if you're out to attack consumers, I suggest you stop now.

 

Just because you as an employee of Orange seem to think the world of Orange, you'll have to learn that at least half the world don't! And in fact most of us know that they are one of the worst companies out there!

 

However it would be only fair to add that it is only Orange who use this tactic of making the customer leap another hurdle before they terminate or port. From what I have heard (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Orange will send a PAYG SIN to a terminating customer whether requested or not with the INVITATION to connect it.

 

This would be fine as far as it goes, but if the user simply has no interest in the old number, Orange will take this as a reason to let the contract roll on, leaving the customer to fight it out when the contract should have ended on the agreed date.

I think you mean a PAYG SIM, not SIN though it is a SIN to be with Orange !

 

Yup, Orange suck!

[OrangePrimate]

In my experience this isn't always true. And I'm guessing that in the OP's experience he didn't get any letter clearly stating that unless it was in some obscure place in print that can't be read without two magnifying glasses!

 

Also not all calls are recorded by Orange. I know this first hand. It may be what they tell you, but I recorded several calls I had with Orange and they claimed they couldn't find them and then told me that not all calls are recorded, they are randomly selected and some calls of newer staff are monitored by more senior staff, but it is complete utter nonsense that all calls are monitored or recorded - which are two different things by the way!

 

Exactly why i stated that the calls are MONITORED, dont recal saying anything about them being recorded or that it was every call monitored! the calls are randomly selected and monitored to make sure the correct information is being given.

No, not all calls are recorded, as with any company, networks or service providers, SOME calls are recorded, they are not kept indefinately.

 

 

I doubt that. But either way it would be fair as compensation should also be due.

and exactly why would would that be fair or compensation be due? it has been known for customers to call in, demanding to know why they are still getting bills when they had requested a payg sim/cancel - not bothered to register it, CARRY ON USING THE CONTRACT SIM, knowing full well it hasnt cancelled, then query why they are being billed for the minutes they are using! I'm sorry but you simply cannot be suggesting that compensation or even credits could be due?

 

No customer should ever shoulder responsibility for the incompetence of Orange. This is a consumer forum, if you're out to attack consumers, I suggest you stop now.

 

So the assumption here is that it is Orange that are incompetant - that the OP has done everything 100% correctly (OP admits to being stubborn and not doing as instructed!!) no consumer ever gets it wrong and that it is always the incompetance of the company?

 

Oh my, what rose tinted glasses! I understand this is a consumer forum, i am also a consumer myself, i am not attacking consumers at all, but it is my personal opinion that some consumers dont help themselves, just as some companies need to be taken to task for their practices. Also this is a forum, we may not all agree with each other all the time, but i also dont believe that a tut, tut, there, there approach is good for anyone, what happened to good old honest opinions, even if it does occasionaly put the consumer instead of a company (any company) in a bad light?

Just because you as an employee of Orange seem to think the world of Orange, you'll have to learn that at least half the world don't! And in fact most of us know that they are one of the worst companies out there!

Yes, i am an employee of Orange, no i dont think the world of them, i go to work to feed my family. BUT, they are no worse or better than the other networks (no point in pulling each other to pieces is there, all the networks get equal amount of bad press, and it is rather bad form to go to town on a rival when working in the same industry!)

I have responded to a post, with what i KNOW happens.

Yes the company do get things wrong, but i can assure you when we are lucky enough to retrieve a recorded call that is in dispute, 90% of the time it is played back to a rather embarrassed customer who is proved to telling a tale!

 

I think you mean a PAYG SIM, not SIN though it is a SIN to be with Orange !

 

Yup, Orange suck!

you obviously love your Network! you say good stuff about yours, i will do the same with mine and we shall agree to differ! Edited October 12, 2008 by OrangePrimate

[OrangePrimate]

However it would be only fair to add that it is only Orange who use this tactic of making the customer leap another hurdle before they terminate or port. From what I have heard (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Orange will send a PAYG SIN to a terminating customer whether requested or not with the INVITATION to connect it.

 

This isnt a tactic, a further hurdle or anything different than any of the networks as far as i am aware. If a customer wants to cancle their orange contract and move to another network, they give 30 days notice and recieve a PAC code. use of the pac terminates the account.

if the customer cancels contract, not porting to other network - is not intersted in number, give 30 days notice, contract ends - end of story(NO payg sim sent)

cancels contract wants to stay with network on payg retaining mobile number - gives 30 days notice and arrangements for payg sim to be sent to customer - on rcpt, customer calls specific number given at time of notice call, or, as given/instructed on page 6 of leaflet 'keeping your contract mobile number' payg sim registered against contract number - transfer takes place - contract cancelled

payg not registered against contract mobile number - no transfer - no cancelation!

 

 

This would be fine as far as it goes, but if the user simply has no interest in the old number, Orange will take this as a reason to let the contract roll on, leaving the customer to fight it out when the contract should have ended on the agreed date.

 

as above, if user simply has no interest in number a simple 30 days notice is taken, end of matter - the contract cancels on the 30th day - a letter is sent out confirming this.

[legalpickle]

Originally Posted by legalpickle

In my experience this isn't always true. And I'm guessing that in the OP's experience he didn't get any letter clearly stating that unless it was in some obscure place in print that can't be read without two magnifying glasses!

 

Also not all calls are recorded by Orange. I know this first hand. It may be what they tell you, but I recorded several calls I had with Orange and they claimed they couldn't find them and then told me that not all calls are recorded, they are randomly selected and some calls of newer staff are monitored by more senior staff, but it is complete utter nonsense that all calls are monitored or recorded - which are two different things by the way!

 

Exactly why i stated that the calls are MONITORED, dont recal saying anything about them being recorded or that it was every call monitored! the calls are randomly selected and monitored to make sure the correct information is being given.

No, not all calls are recorded, as with any company, networks or service providers, SOME calls are recorded, they are not kept indefinately.

Read all of my post. Not all calls are monitored. This was told to me by the head office of Orange. You wrote "Can I just point out that calls are monitored" implying that all calls including the OP's calls with Orange Puke were monitored.

 

 

I doubt that. But either way it would be fair as compensation should also be due.

and exactly why would would that be fair or compensation be due? it has been known for customers to call in, demanding to know why they are still getting bills when they had requested a payg sim/cancel - not bothered to register it, CARRY ON USING THE CONTRACT SIM, knowing full well it hasnt cancelled, then query why they are being billed for the minutes they are using! I'm sorry but you simply cannot be suggesting that compensation or even credits could be due?

 

No customer should ever shoulder responsibility for the incompetence of Orange. This is a consumer forum, if you're out to attack consumers, I suggest you stop now.

 

So the assumption here is that it is Orange that are incompetant - that the OP has done everything 100% correctly (OP admits to being stubborn and not doing as instructed!!) no consumer ever gets it wrong and that it is always the incompetance of the company?

 

Oh my, what rose tinted glasses! I understand this is a consumer forum, i am also a consumer myself, i am not attacking consumers at all, but it is my personal opinion that some consumers dont help themselves, just as some companies need to be taken to task for their practices. Also this is a forum, we may not all agree with each other all the time, but i also dont believe that a tut, tut, there, there approach is good for anyone, what happened to good old honest opinions, even if it does occasionaly put the consumer instead of a company (any company) in a bad light?

I have dealt with several people who have had troubles with Orange and not one of them has been in the wrong. Yes in some rare cases with other companies the consumer is in the wrong, but with Orange - Orange are ALWAYS in the wrong! Whatever the case! Orange suck! The only network that comes close to being as bad as Orange - and possibly worse - are Hutchison 3!

 

 

Just because you as an employee of Orange seem to think the world of Orange, you'll have to learn that at least half the world don't! And in fact most of us know that they are one of the worst companies out there!

Yes, i am an employee of Orange, no i dont think the world of them, i go to work to feed my family. BUT, they are no worse or better than the other networks (no point in pulling each other to pieces is there, all the networks get equal amount of bad press, and it is rather bad form to go to town on a rival when working in the same industry!)

I have responded to a post, with what i KNOW happens.

Yes the company do get things wrong, but i can assure you when we are lucky enough to retrieve a recorded call that is in dispute, 90% of the time it is played back to a rather embarrassed customer who is proved to telling a tale!

Not all the networks get an equal amount of bad press. In fact it seems bad press is in this order for networks. Hutchison 3 - worst. Orange - second worst. Voda - third. O2 - fourth [running closer to T-Mobile] T-Mobile - now, best. [Apparently T-Mobile used to be rubbish before they revamped their customer service and introduced the Flext tariff's].

I think you mean a PAYG SIM, not SIN though it is a SIN to be with Orange !

 

Yup, Orange suck!

you obviously love your Network! you say good stuff about yours, i will do the same with mine and we shall agree to differ!

Note: This response was to buzby's post, not to yours.

 

Actually I've only had a few small problems with T-Mobile Business and they were all sorted out extremely quickly. Everybody's human and small mistakes do happen but the mistakes that happened with Orange and later with Orange Business were deliberate and caused me more nightmares than you can imagine. This was even when I was paying my £350/month bills on time!

 

 

Originally Posted by buzby

However it would be only fair to add that it is only Orange who use this tactic of making the customer leap another hurdle before they terminate or port. From what I have heard (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Orange will send a PAYG SIN to a terminating customer whether requested or not with the INVITATION to connect it.

 

This isnt a tactic, a further hurdle or anything different than any of the networks as far as i am aware. If a customer wants to cancle their orange contract and move to another network, they give 30 days notice and recieve a PAC code. use of the pac terminates the account.

 

if the customer cancels contract, not porting to other network - is not intersted in number, give 30 days notice, contract ends - end of story(NO payg sim sent)

 

cancels contract wants to stay with network on payg retaining mobile number - gives 30 days notice and arrangements for payg sim to be sent to customer - on rcpt, customer calls specific number given at time of notice call, or, as given/instructed on page 6 of leaflet 'keeping your contract mobile number' payg sim registered against contract number - transfer takes place - contract cancelled

 

payg not registered against contract mobile number - no transfer - no cancelation!

 

 

This would be fine as far as it goes, but if the user simply has no interest in the old number, Orange will take this as a reason to let the contract roll on, leaving the customer to fight it out when the contract should have ended on the agreed date.

 

as above, if user simply has no interest in number a simple 30 days notice is taken, end of matter - the contract cancels on the 30th day - a letter is sent out confirming this.

Nope. What actually happens is the incompetent Orange Puke staff insist to the customer that they must be given a PAYG SIM and are not told about the rules behind putting it in their phone. Occasionally it is put in tiny writing in a small note at the bottom back of one of the least important pages.

 

I had to sue Orange because they refused to give me my numbers - that were consecutive and I had paid £200 for - and I won. The Judge said that seeing such disgusting behaviour by a network makes him worried about his mobile contract! He said that nothing Orange had done was right and I won the whole claim - all just over £900 of it! Also, contrary to the normal orders of 14 days to pay, they were given 7 days to pay because the Judge called it "exceptional circumstances". They hadn't paid within 7 days so I - having the bank details of Orange to pay bills - issued a Third Party Debt Order. They paid straight after the issue of that but nonetheless incurred £55 from their bankers and £55 more to pay to me!

 

Moral: NEVER EVER USE ORANGE!!! THEY ARE ONE OF THE WORST NETWORKS OUT THERE!!! AND NO, I DON'T WORK FOR ANY MOBILE PHONE NETWORK UNLIKE BIASED ORANGEPRIMATE!!!

[jody123]

It may be beneficial if you post a draft copy here so that we can proof it for you.

 

The letters from Moorcroft are not considered harrassment. The meaning of harrassment is quite different from one or two DCA letters.

 

Also, you shouldn't be asking for a deadlock letter but asking for the issue to be satisfactorily sorted.

 

Also, copying in Orange's CEO is useless.

 

Quite often people think they're being smart by writing loads of things they don't understand the real meaning of as they think it will scare the other side. In reality it makes the other side think the person is stupid.

 

Oops, sorry legal pickle, thanks for the offer, but I've already sent by signed for delivery.

 

Just to answer some of the points you raise, and differ in our opinion...If an alleged debt that is in dispute is sent to a DCA and they try to enforce collection then Orange are in breach of debt collection guidelines, furthermore any enforcement letters sent can, and have been in a Court of Law (as cited on CAG), classed as harassment due to the fact that being threatened with legal action, a note on your credit file etc, for a debt you do not owe causes alarm and distress.

 

I've asked twice now for it to be sorted and it has got me nowhere. I am only willing to bang my head against a brick wall so many times and I think two letters are enough. The next step is to ask for the deadlock letter so that the matter can be referred to CISAS. If I get no resolution through either Orange or CISAS then I will have to go to court. If I need to go to court I need to show that I have followed pre-action protocols by following the company's complaints procedure.

 

Another CAGer included the CEO on their letter and the matter was resolved within days. Ultimately though, if this comes to court I can show that the CEO was aware of the situation, should I be bringing a damages claim then again I want the court to know that the CEO knew about it. Furthermore if I were to prove harassment then the guilty party can be imprisoned.

 

I am trying to scare no-one - although Moorcroft clearly were. I LMAO with the paragraph that said it had legal effect even if not read by me. The final paragraph said if I paid they would reconnect my line which would be the last thing any sane person in my position would want!!!

 

Jody

[legalpickle]

Oops, sorry legal pickle, thanks for the offer, but I've already sent by signed for delivery.

Mistake. ALWAYS send important letters by special delivery, not recorded [signed for] as it's not guaranteed.

 

Just to answer some of the points you raise, and differ in our opinion...If an alleged debt that is in dispute is sent to a DCA and they try to enforce collection then Orange are in breach of debt collection guidelines, furthermore any enforcement letters sent can, and have been in a Court of Law (as cited on CAG), classed as harassment due to the fact that being threatened with legal action, a note on your credit file etc, for a debt you do not owe causes alarm and distress.

I beg to differ over letters. A default yes, but letters no.

 

I've asked twice now for it to be sorted and it has got me nowhere. I am only willing to bang my head against a brick wall so many times and I think two letters are enough. The next step is to ask for the deadlock letter so that the matter can be referred to CISAS. If I get no resolution through either Orange or CISAS then I will have to go to court. If I need to go to court I need to show that I have followed pre-action protocols by following the company's complaints procedure.

Rubbish. There is no pre-action protocol that says you have to follow the company's complaints procedure and you are under no legal obligation to do so.

It doesn't hurt to do so, but just thought that I'd clarify the law for you.

 

Another CAGer included the CEO on their letter and the matter was resolved within days. Ultimately though, if this comes to court I can show that the CEO was aware of the situation, should I be bringing a damages claim then again I want the court to know that the CEO knew about it. Furthermore if I were to prove harassment then the guilty party can be imprisoned.

Don't get ahead of yourself now. Harassment resulting in imprisonment needs to be long and dragged out after restraining orders. It also needs to go via the Magistrates Court as a criminal offence.

 

I am trying to scare no-one - although Moorcroft clearly were. I LMAO with the paragraph that said it had legal effect even if not read by me. The final paragraph said if I paid they would reconnect my line which would be the last thing any sane person in my position would want!!!

[OrangePrimate]

Read all of my post. Not all calls are monitored. This was told to me by the head office of Orange. You wrote "Can I just point out that calls are monitored" implying that all calls including the OP's calls with Orange Puke were monitored.

 

 

 

I have dealt with several people who have had troubles with Orange and not one of them has been in the wrong. Yes in some rare cases with other companies the consumer is in the wrong, but with Orange - Orange are ALWAYS in the wrong! Whatever the case! Orange suck! The only network that comes close to being as bad as Orange - and possibly worse - are Hutchison 3!

 

 

 

Not all the networks get an equal amount of bad press. In fact it seems bad press is in this order for networks. Hutchison 3 - worst. Orange - second worst. Voda - third. O2 - fourth [running closer to T-Mobile] T-Mobile - now, best. [Apparently T-Mobile used to be rubbish before they revamped their customer service and introduced the Flext tariff's].

 

Note: This response was to buzby's post, not to yours.

 

Actually I've only had a few small problems with T-Mobile Business and they were all sorted out extremely quickly. Everybody's human and small mistakes do happen but the mistakes that happened with Orange and later with Orange Business were deliberate and caused me more nightmares than you can imagine. This was even when I was paying my £350/month bills on time!

 

 

 

Nope. What actually happens is the incompetent Orange Puke staff insist to the customer that they must be given a PAYG SIM and are not told about the rules behind putting it in their phone. Occasionally it is put in tiny writing in a small note at the bottom back of one of the least important pages.

 

I had to sue Orange because they refused to give me my numbers - that were consecutive and I had paid £200 for - and I won. The Judge said that seeing such disgusting behaviour by a network makes him worried about his mobile contract! He said that nothing Orange had done was right and I won the whole claim - all just over £900 of it! Also, contrary to the normal orders of 14 days to pay, they were given 7 days to pay because the Judge called it "exceptional circumstances". They hadn't paid within 7 days so I - having the bank details of Orange to pay bills - issued a Third Party Debt Order. They paid straight after the issue of that but nonetheless incurred £55 from their bankers and £55 more to pay to me!

 

Moral: NEVER EVER USE ORANGE!!! THEY ARE ONE OF THE WORST NETWORKS OUT THERE!!! AND NO, I DON'T WORK FOR ANY MOBILE PHONE NETWORK UNLIKE BIASED ORANGEPRIMATE!!!

 

Legalpickle, i have always respected your viewpoints, feedback and help you offer, but this post was in MY opinion disgraceful.

 

splitting hairs and stating that i claimed all calls are monitored and coming up with 'Head Office told me' different. well whoopdie doo! yes they would have said that because it is true and i never claimed anything different. My statement was, 'calls are monitored' I did not imply ALL calls where monitored and certainly nothing about recording off calls as your 1st reply stated.

 

And, 'Orange are ALWAYS in the wrong, whatever' - that is such a sweeping statement, totally incorrect and based on what? after 7 years with the Company I can assure you totally wrong!

 

Staff DO NOT force payg sims on customers or insist they have them. they offer them, and that offer is taken up about 50% of the time, please do not claim to know any different soley based on your hatred of the Company.

 

I am sorry you had a bad experience with Orange, i am sure you will go on to have a few more bad experiences with other various service providers be it mobile, gas, electricity or a complaint against Tesco's, but at least TRY and keep it balanced!!

 

"incompetent Orange puke staff" ???

MORAL: dont personally insult fellow posters who only happen to be employed by the Company you may dislike, they are only trying to help by explaining procedures.

 

your Moral in capitals and highlighted in red - And you have the nerve to call ME biased!!!

 

slanging match over - time to put your personal feelings aside and advise posters effectively and correctly i think.

(in MY opinion - if someone is having a problem with a company, getting a little knowledge on its inner workings, it can only HELP? someone who DOES NOT have that knowledge can only hinder if giving incorrect info)

[legalpickle]

Legalpickle, i have always respected your viewpoints, feedback and help you offer, but this post was in MY opinion disgraceful.

I apologize for the delay in responding. I completely disagree with you and fail to find anything disgraceful about my post. I thank you for the respect though.

 

splitting hairs and stating that i claimed all calls are monitored and coming up with 'Head Office told me' different. well whoopdie doo! yes they would have said that because it is true and i never claimed anything different. My statement was, 'calls are monitored' I did not imply ALL calls where monitored and certainly nothing about recording off calls as your 1st reply stated.

In your response to the OP, you wrote [and I quote verbatim] " Can i just point out that calls are monitored", which to me - and any sane person - implied that ALL calls are monitored. If that was not what you intended then you should have been clearer and stated something to the effect of "some calls are monitored".

 

And, 'Orange are ALWAYS in the wrong, whatever' - that is such a sweeping statement, totally incorrect and based on what? after 7 years with the Company I can assure you totally wrong!

I have never experienced an occasion - both personally and through my charitable and work commitments - when Orange have been in the right! Neither have any of my colleagues.

 

Staff DO NOT force payg sims on customers or insist they have them. they offer them, and that offer is taken up about 50% of the time, please do not claim to know any different soley based on your hatred of the Company.

This is not based on my hatred of Orange. It is based on my personal experience with over 30 people who have suffered at the hands of Orange. Personal experience of colleagues brings that number to over 150. That's just in parts of 3 postcode areas which ends up being an area of about 11,500 families. That's besides for the numerous terrible experiences I have read about on many forums.

 

I am sorry you had a bad experience with Orange, i am sure you will go on to have a few more bad experiences with other various service providers be it mobile, gas, electricity or a complaint against Tesco's, but at least TRY and keep it balanced!!

I have had bad experiences with many companies and dealt with people who have bad experiences with many companies, but the bad experiences with Orange have come out - always - in the top 10 worst!

 

"incompetent Orange puke staff" ???

MORAL: dont personally insult fellow posters who only happen to be employed by the Company you may dislike, they are only trying to help by explaining procedures.

I am sorry if I have insulted you, but I cannot see which of your posts explained Orange procedures that didn't contradict at least one other poster in this thread. I also cannot see which of your posts would assist the OP - or anybody else - in dealing with issues with Orange.

 

your Moral in capitals and highlighted in red - And you have the nerve to call ME biased!!!

As I wrote above, it is based upon my extensive negative experience with many departments of Orange.

 

slanging match over - time to put your personal feelings aside and advise posters effectively and correctly i think.

(in MY opinion - if someone is having a problem with a company, getting a little knowledge on its inner workings, it can only HELP? someone who DOES NOT have that knowledge can only hinder if giving incorrect info)

I am advising posters effectively and correctly. I have not given any incorrect information.

 

I agree that giving information about the inner workings of a company can help but there is nothing here of yours that has done so.

 

I did not mean to insult you by stating that you are biased, but working for a company and stating positive things about the company gives the impression that you are biased to that company. You work for them. Your livelihood depends on them. I guess that would make most people biased. It is no way derogatory.

 

Let me add that in the Which? Magazine, March 2008 issue on page 43, Orange comes BOTTOM of the list of 28 broadband providers. This is based upon Which?'s independent and non-biased research. This was based on 849 users of Orange Broadband [which was the 5th largest amount of users of any of the networks listed in the survey, hence 23 providers with less users].

 

To me that reinforces that my moral is bang on!

Edited October 18, 2008 by legalpickle