Being chased by debt agency - am I liable?

[rosie22]

I received a 'trace confirmation' from a debt agency in July which is apparently for a Powergen bill from 2003 when I lived with an ex-boyfriend. Although I lived in the property with him it wasn't in my name (it was his house) and I'm pretty sure that the electricity/gas bills weren't. I've written to them and asked for a copy of the invoice and statement from the account but as yet have not received them. What I have had is several telephone calls asking for me to arrange a payment plan (I eventually told them not to use my phone but to contact me by letter) and a subsequent 'Notice of Issue of Litigation Proceedings'. I've rung and again told them to send me the invoice and statement. Help please! I'm not sure how they've got my name and if I'm liable if he hasn't paid?

[pelham9]

Who is the DCA?

 

It is probably Powergen's (now E-on)in house DCA.

 

I would write to E-on stating you know nothing of this account and requesting the information you require from them. Enclose copies of the DCA letters and make sure you file the originals. Note that if the account

is in your ex-boyfriend's name only they will not be able to send you anything because of Data Protection.

 

Do not communicate with the DCA in anyway until you are certain of your position - ignore them totally whatever their threats. They can do nothing until they can prove the debt is in your name.

 

You are probably not liable. Was your boyfriend living in the house before you moved in? If so it is very likely the account is in his name only.

[ATD]

I'm not totally certain about this as it's a fair while since I dealt with these type of issues.

 

If you were living in the property for the period that is covered by the bill - and this can be shown from a public records search - then the fact that your name is not on the account doesn't matter.

 

You will have had use/benefit of the utility and the supply will pursue under the "deemed contract" regulations. Basically if they can prove that who (yourself and partner) lived at the property they can pursue either or both of you for the bill - along the lines of Joint and Several Liability.

 

As stated above though, make sure you get the details of the time period that this bill covers - if you were not living there at that point then you have no liability.

[rosie22]

Thanks for the advice.

 

The debt recovery agency is SRJ Debt Recoveries so I don't think it is an in-house one but I will contact E-on to see if they can shed any light on it. I spoke with my ex when I received the first letter and he said he was being chased for a similar amount last year which he claims he paid (he's pretty honest) but now he can't find any details of the letters etc he sent.

 

I'm pretty fed up as, although I may have lived there, I paid other bills and this was his responsibility. The house was his, in his name as I owned another one in a different city. If it had been my bill then I would have the copies of them (I keep everything).

 

I'll see if I get anywhere with E-on as I'm not paying anything until I have at least a copy of a bill!!

[pelham9]

ATD.

 

Take this scenario.

 

A guy has been living in aa house for two years and all utility bills are up to date. He invites his girlfriend to stay with him. She moves in and 6 months later when it does not work out she moves out. The guy pays no further electricity bills. Are you saying that the girlfriend is liable for the the whole bill whilst she was living with him.

 

That seems daft to me.

[ATD]

ATD.

 

Take this scenario.

 

A guy has been living in aa house for two years and all utility bills are up to date. He invites his girlfriend to stay with him. She moves in and 6 months later when it does not work out she moves out. The guy pays no further electricity bills. Are you saying that the girlfriend is liable for the the whole bill whilst she was living with him.

 

That seems daft to me.

 

It may well seem daft, but during the 6 months they are both responsible for the utilities - regardless of who's name is on the account. The girlfriend would not be liable for anything pre her move in or post her move out.

 

It would also need to be qualified by saying there would need to be proof that she was living at the property during this period.

 

We used to do that by searching electoral roll, and looking at credit/bank applications at the address; and have successfully obtained court judgements on that basis.

 

The only time that would be negated would be with a tenancy agreement that specified the tenant was not responsible for utilities (obviously not applicable in this scenario).

[pelham9]

ATD

 

Does there have to be a 'husband/wife' relationship or could it be anybody?

 

Let us suppose that I own a house and pay all the bills with accounts in my name only. I invite my sister and her six grown up children to stay with me. She accepts and leaves her own house empty but often gives my address as her temporary address. She occasionally goes back to her house to pick up post and stays overnight. I do not pay an electricity bill for six months and just before I am taken to court flee

abroad out of the jurisdiction. Would my sister and and her children be liable for the bill I did not pay for that six months.

 

Would it be different if I had signed a contract with the electricity company in my name only?

 

I think it very likely all this is not as simple as you appear to believe. It would make my guests liable if I do not pay my bills!!.

[pelham9]

Rosie22

 

If you look on Energywatch's website you will find that this matter is far from simple. Your boyfriend says he paid the bills and it is quite possible that he had a contract in his name Note that what ADT says applies to deemed contracts and does not apply if there is a formal contract signed by your ex-boyfriend.

 

 

I would contact Energywatch ASAP and ask advice.

[surfaceagentx20]

C'mon Pelham's got to be right hasn't he?

 

Let's make it really bad. Let's imagine a hotel goes into liquidation with a deficit of a bazillion dollars. Is every one of its guests personally liable to meet their fair proportion of the unpaid utility charge?

 

I hear what you say ATD but the abilities you suggest exist are devoid of the usual contractual niceties. Any power to compel a non-party to pay will be a power writ in Statute. What are these 'deemed contract' regulations you speak of? Are they legislative?

 

If you were posting out claims to non-parties here there and everywhere, I'd like to think the non-parties were supplied with at least some information explaining how they were liable in law. How did you frame your claims in court for payment by non-parties? This was the day she moved in, this was the day she moved out. This is a calculation of the power she enjoyed when she was there. How do you do it? Any of these cases go to trial?

 

Would be so interested to know. We've got an OP keen to know right now.

 

x20

[surfaceagentx20]

OK, I eat humble pie. The Utilities Act 2000 Schedule 4 para 3 seems to cover things electrical. I dare similar provisions exist in regard to gas.

 

Schedule 4 Para 3:

 

Deemed contracts in certain cases

 

3 (1) Where an electricity supplier supplies electricity to any premises otherwise than in pursuance of a contract, the supplier shall be deemed to have contracted with the occupier (or the owner if the premises are unoccupied) for the supply of electricity as from the time (“the relevant time”) when he began so to supply electricity.

 

No better definition of 'occupier' is given. However, the deemed contract is said be with 'the occupier .. as from the time when (the supplier) began so to supply electricity.'

 

Thus if without signing a contract with a supplier I occupy premises from 1 January and from that day begin to be supplied with electricity, I am the person deemed to have made the contract.

 

I would argue, any one else coming to live at the property after the contract was deemed to have been made and whilst I am there, does not become a party to whom the supplier is supplying, because the supplier is supplying to me under the contract deemed to have been made on 1 January. When I move out such that the supplier ceases to supply to me, a contract is deemed to have been made with any succeeding occupier the moment a succeeding occupier takes a supply of electricity (and if unoccupied, then by the owner).

 

Thus, if the boyfirend had not signed a contract, by reason of occupation in the circumstances outlined by me above, the boyfriend would be deemed to have entered into a contract with the supplier.

 

If Rosie's occupation came afterwards and coincided with a period of time of the boyfriend's continuous occupation of the premises, the boyfriend continued to be the person deemed to have made the contract, not Rosie.

 

Only if the boyfriend ceased to be the occupier (for 'ceased' read 'ceased to occupy the premises as his main or ordinary residence') and Rosie remained and received electricity would a new contract be deemed to have arisen whereby Rosie was liable.

 

Would that be about right?

 

x20

[ATD]

I think it very likely all this is not as simple as you appear to believe. It would make my guests liable if I do not pay my bills!!.

 

I don't believe that I said it was a simple matter.

 

Deemed contracts can and do apply even where a signed contract is in place, i.e. the account/contract is in one name with others also living at the property - a good common example would be student accommodation. the actual wording of the gas act refers to the consumer of the gas

 

Deemed contracts in certain cases

 

8 (1) Where a gas supplier supplies gas to a consumer otherwise than in pursuance of a contract, the supplier shall be deemed to have contracted with the consumer for the supply of gas as from the time (“the relevant time”) when he began so to supply gas to the consumer.

 

(2) Where—

(a) the owner or occupier of any premises takes a supply of gas which has been conveyed to those premises by a public gas transporter in pursuance of arrangements made with the transporter by a gas shipper, or by a person authorised to make the arrangements by an exemption granted under section 6A of this Act;

 

(b) that supply is not made by a gas supplier, or by a person authorised to make it by an exemption granted under section 6A of this Act or an exception contained in Schedule 2A to this Act; and

 

© a supply of gas so conveyed has been previously made by a gas supplier,

the owner or occupier shall be deemed to have contracted with the appropriate supplier for the supply of gas as from the time (“the relevant time”) when he began to take such a supply; but nothing in this sub-paragraph shall be taken to afford a defence in any criminal proceedings.

 

Obviously in your scenario above, regardless of giving your address as a temporary one, it is unlikely that you Sister would change her registration on the voters roll, she would have bills for her own property which she is maintaining and therefore be able to prove that your address was not her only residence.

 

As I said before, it's some time since I have dealt with exactly these situations, things may have changed - all I can offer is that in these circumstances the utility co that I worked for have secured court judgements in their favour.

 

I hope this is not the case for the OP, but to say that the fact that her name was not on the bill precludes any liability is not correct.

[MARTIN3030]

I would,as suggested contact Energy watch.

Remember also that energy companies cannot demand payment of accounts that are older than 1 year if there was no bills issued.Additionally the DCA must suspend any recovery attempts to collect whilst a dispute remains-under OFT guidelines.

[noggsy]

I tend to agree with "surface" unless the supplier was notified by the Tenant of a joint tenancy or occupancy then Rosie cannot be liable for the bills as she has no actual or implied contract with them.

[pelham9]

I am sure that the electricity company and DCAs will always try to get the money from someone whether they are liable or not. I would think that ADT was doing exactly that and as his company was always right and honest he thinks as he does.

 

I am sure that there have been court cases where the other occupiers such as in student lettings are liable and the company has won. It will depend on the circumstances. It does not make sense to me that Rosie is liable and I think the company is trying it on. Rosie should fight this.

 

Her ex-boyfiend says he paid the bill in any case. I have seen so many errors made by utility companies and 'errors' made by DCAs that it is quite likely that nothing is owing.

 

I have been trying to get contracts from my utility suppliers for over 18 months. No wonder they prefer deemed contracts. There is so much confusion that it is easy for the companies to pull the wool over the eyes of someone who is not liable. I am not saying that people like ADT are dishonest, They do what they are told to do and he will not know if there is dishonesty higher in the organisation.

[ATD]

I am sure that the electricity company and DCAs will always try to get the money from someone whether they are liable or not. I would think that ADT was doing exactly that and as his company was always right and honest he thinks as he does.

 

 

There is so much confusion that it is easy for the companies to pull the wool over the eyes of someone who is not liable. I am not saying that people like ADT are dishonest, They do what they are told to do and he will not know if there is dishonesty higher in the organisation.

 

Well it's blatantly obvious that you know me so well, you even seem to know what position I held with my former employer.

 

You are of course correct in your assumption that I have neither the intelligence to assess the merits of a situation and act accordingly, nor do I have any level of morality, therefore freeing me from the need to be concerned about right and wrong.

[saintly_1]

Can we keep the posts on this thread civil please

 

 

saint

[pelham9]

ATD

 

I am sorry if I offended you.

 

It would be a good idea for you to inform us of your position with your former employer. I had assumed it was a middle management position i.e. with no policy making remit and following company policy.

 

Perhaps you would consider answering the following queries.

 

1) Would it be normal practice for a utility company to attempt to get payment from a third party via a DCA? In these circumsataces would it not be company policy to expect the DCA to return the debt if a third party became involved?

 

2) Do you consider that the OFT quidelines on debt collection are pertinent to this situation

 

3) If Rosie is indeed liable would it be normal practice for the electricity company to bill her before involving a DCA?

 

4) Surely if there was a signed contact in place only the contactee is liable under the contact. If that person leaves the premises the resulting (whether in situ or new occupier) could be considered to have a deemed contract. Is this correct?

 

5) The same qestion but replace 'signed contract' with deemed contract.

 

6) You say that even if a contract was signed it is perfectly possible for a company to deem somebody else to have a contract when the signee was still an occupant and this position has been upheld in court. Have you any references? Were the cases defended?

 

7) Rosie's ex says that he paid the bill up to date. How would you go about checking this considering that a DCA is involved. I would think it possible (some would say likely) that the DCA are trying to get double payments.

 

8) how would your company have managed this situation?

 

It is great to have a previous utiliy employee on board of sufficient standing to answer difficult but I hope pertinent questions !!

[noggsy]

To be fair to ATD within the "Utility" business, Field Reps (which I assume ATD s role was) in the main have very little latitude. Although they will report to the particular Utility Company on the situation, it is normally a person behind a computer screen who makes the final decision. In many cases these decisions tend not to take into account the actual facts or cicumstances but it is easier to pass the matter onto either an external DCA or to court for a Warrant. As I have previously posted, in Rosies case she, in my opinion is not liable, and I would suggest, would be difficult to enforce in court. However, I have come across cases where, because the customer did not defend the action, (because they felt that they were not liable) judgements have been granted. This is not to say, these have not been stopped once the true situation has been established (normally at the "death".

[rosie22]

Just want to thank everyone for all their help and I have a resolution! I wrote to E-on and a woman from there rang me this week. She looked at the account - it's not in my name but in March 2003 I rang them twice as we'd not been billed for electricity for 12 months. I gave two meter readings. This is where they had got my name from. They never billed for this as they did not think they were the electricity supplier. In September (after I'd moved out) my ex changed suppliers. They realised that they were the supplier and began billing. Some bright spark looked on the 'notes' and saw that Miss Smith, Mr Jones' partner had phoned in and my name suddenly appeared on the bills. The woman was fantastic and assures me that I am in no way liable. The contract was with my ex and it was his property. They will now be chasing him for the money but I will hear nothing further about it.

 

Thanks again to everyone - I've had a glass or two to celebrate and I feel as though a huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders. E-on are contacting the debt collectors and telling them to remove my name from their files and if I get anything further I'm just to send it to this woman (she gave me her name and telephone number).

 

Rosie xx

[saintly_1]

You should of asked her to send confirmation by letter that you are not liable for the debt just incase

[rosie22]

thanks - will do!

[yb3000]

I'm hoping that someone can help as I have a similar query to Rosie. I live in a student house with 3 other people in 2007. When we moved out we lost our deposit and the land lady said that a sum of this would be taken to pay the outstanding electricity bill.

 

2 years later I have received a letter from Pastdue Credit Solutions asking for the entire years bill. Firstly, I am positive that the first quarter was paid although I now have no proof. Secondly, the letter was addressed to two of the four tenants (one being myself). I called them stupidly and disputed this bill, of course that got me nowhere. I then sent a letter asking for proof.

 

I just received another letter, which includes a bill for the whole amount from Southern Electric, with three names, one half spelt, dated September 2007. Although there is no proof that I occupied this house, the DCA have claimed that their conversation with me along with the bill proved that I lived there.

 

On one hand I feel that I should be paying the bill at all because the land lady took our deposits to cover any outstanding bills. Plus, I am being chased for the whole thing despite being one of 4 people that lived there. Also with the bill being so long ago, can it still be enforced?

[what_todo]

I received a 'trace confirmation' from a debt agency in July which is apparently for a Powergen bill from 2003 when I lived with an ex-boyfriend. Although I lived in the property with him it wasn't in my name (it was his house) and I'm pretty sure that the electricity/gas bills weren't. I've written to them and asked for a copy of the invoice and statement from the account but as yet have not received them. What I have had is several telephone calls asking for me to arrange a payment plan (I eventually told them not to use my phone but to contact me by letter) and a subsequent 'Notice of Issue of Litigation Proceedings'. I've rung and again told them to send me the invoice and statement. Help please! I'm not sure how they've got my name and if I'm liable if he hasn't paid?

 

 

hi has it been more that 6 years??

[yb3000]

No it was 2007 but I just got a copy of the bill.

[what_todo]

confirm this the bill was not in your name/joint and it bill was from when in 2003