Natwest have taken us to court - please help

[nicklea]

I have no idea what order they have applied for, but i thought it may have been a Stay? You can phone up the court and ask, you can also try phoning Shoosmiths as well (don't know how helpful Shoosmiths will be)

 

Therefore they are missleading the court that we are infact setting off instead of having a valid claim and defence. Setting-off is a valid claim and defence. In fact it is useful in cases like this to refer to a counterclaim as a right of set-off as then you don't have to pay any court fees as you're not making a counterclaim, purely a defence.

 

By the way, is your claim for charges bigger than their claim against you. If it is then I can understand why they aren't proceeding with the Allocation Questionnare as they have nothing to gain by pursuing this course.

They have no intention of submitting a counterclaim or defence - can they actually choose to do this without any penalty? It depends what the order says that they have requested. It may say something like we reserve the right to alter our defence at a later time.

 

It would be very good to actually find out what the order says and, don't forget, you will have the opportunity to object to it if you don't like it.

 

Even if their case is struck out it will still continue on the basis of your counter claim. However, given that the stays in all the other bank charges cases haven't been lifted yet then it's likely that your case won't be heard until it's all decided either.

I would like to appeal against the request for a stay but cant find anything that helps me to do this.

 

Have a look in the bank charges section but, to be honest, I don't think you'll be successful at the moment and it would cost you another £75 to apply.

 

Again any help in drawing up a letter in response to this would be greatly appreciated

 

Also now that the claim has been transfered to my local court - is there any way of following the status of it through MCOL?

 

Peep xx

 

..

[Docman]

Clearly, the pony express rider hasn't got to Northampton yet and told them that the Banks lost the case over a week ago.

Seriously, ring the court NOW and find out what Shoos are up to. They could have made a 'Without Notice' application to stay, claiming the banks case as a reason. As we know, most stays are being granted automatically, i.e. by the junior court staff, rather than by a judge.

It wouldn't surprise me if Shoos know the local court official very well and get these applications through 'on the nod'. Nothing unlawful in that but if the application is seen by a more senior official or the judge, it could get refused.

I read Shoos first letter as well. Unbelievable. These people are so arrogant, they believe they can take the Michael and ignore the court. Just press on. Clearly, they haven't got a leg to stand on.

[peep]

I have phoned the court who as yet have not received any application or other paperwork from Shoosmiths.

 

I spoke with Shoosmiths who stated that they have applied for a stay pending the outcome of the OFT - test case which has still to beheard.

 

Even they have said that the actions towards us from the NatWest have been" underhanded and naughty" for persuing the claim against us after requesting that we dont persue the claim until the case has been heard.

 

They have asked for the stay as they have Nothing to loose and that they believe that the banks will loose but they will have to pay out a smaller amount then the full charge being persued by people at the mo.

 

The news from last week was not the banks loosing but OFT winning the juristiction to oversee the amount the charges should be in the future - or at least thats the way i understand it

 

I suppose that i have just joined the mass of people who's only optin is to now wait for the outcome as it is highly unlikely that the stay will not be granted, even if i oppose it.

 

i must admit though - i did find the person in charge of my case in Shoosmiths both very helpful and respectful which i found very refreshing.

 

Peep xxx

[Docman]

Oh Peep! I'm sorry. [EDIT] Who do you think is driving the action against you now. NatWest or Shoos. NW wrote off your debt & claim when they handed the file over to Shoos, who are now calling the shots and will continue to drag out the proceedings and the costs. Nat West will pay those costs regardless. If you loose, or they win (I'm not sure of the difference) those costs will be added to the bill.

 

If you doubt me, call Shoos back and tell them you are thinking of opposing their application as the matter has been decided but you want to know what their likely costs would be for attending the hearing the application. It will be aroung £450 give or take the odd £50.

[peep]

Oh Peep! I'm sorry. [EDIT] Who do you think is driving the action against you now. NatWest or Shoos. NW wrote off your debt & claim when they handed the file over to Shoos, who are now calling the shots and will continue to drag out the proceedings and the costs. Nat West will pay those costs regardless. If you loose, or they win (I'm not sure of the difference) those costs will be added to the bill.

 

If you doubt me, call Shoos back and tell them you are thinking of opposing their application as the matter has been decided but you want to know what their likely costs would be for attending the hearing the application. It will be aroung £450 give or take the odd £50.

 

 

Docman - u have managed to slightly offended me but more so baffled me, i dont fully understand the purpose or reason for your message?

 

Are you saying that This is no longer between Natwest and me but is between Shoosmiths and me?

 

And i dont understand why i need to call to find out what costs will be applied or why it is relevant as Natwest will pay them - or is your point that you dont like solicitors dragging things out as they make money off the back of the individuals involved.

 

What matter has been decided?

 

And please dont tell me to grow up - trust me i dont need to

[peep]

If anyone gave give me some directions on what to do next if anything - then i would really appreciate it.

 

thanks

[Rooster-UK]

Peep, You hit the report button 2 minutes after making the above post.

Not giving people a lot of time to offer advice, are you.

There are over 176,000 users who can, given time to respond, advise you. At this precise moment there are 83 on line, scattered over the entire site.

There are only 31 team members, of which at this precise moment, there are only 6 online.

 

Patience, Peeps, patience.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[peep]

Sorry Hun

 

It was the post i put on yesterday that i was looking for assistance with. I dont want to come across as being inpatient as i honestly understand how busy you guys are and how helpful and generous you are with your time also.

I wanted to "Bump" the thread as the only reply i had was from Docman and i needed a little more advice.

 

Patience is a virtue = I know as I keep saying it to my kids often enough lol

 

thanks

[Rooster-UK]

You will find all the advice you need on this forum from other users that are treading the same path.

 

To bring your thread back up to the top of the page, just post "bump".

[peep]

Bump

[saintly_1]

It would seem that shoosmiths were applying for a stay.

 

I would contact the court sometime later this week to see what is happening as shoo's had till Friday to file the AQ.

 

saint

[peep]

Hi

 

I have phoned the courts today and they have said that Shoosmiths have not returned their Allocation Questionnaire or Defence. They have not made any applications atthis time but have sent a letter which has been sent up to the judge for his opinion?

The court claims department could not give me any details of the content of this letter or any guidance due to this.

I have requested a copy of this letter and also that this case now be passed to the judge for judgement do to Shoosmiths having failed to complete bu any deadline.

The court has requested that i call back i a few days for further details but i was of the opinion that the person i spoke to didnt know what she was talking about.

 

I appreciate that things are stalling but i dont know what i can do about it.

[saintly_1]

You can only do as the court suggests call them after the weekend and see what the state of play is then

[peep]

Toady I have received a copy of the Draft Order fom Shoosmiths that they forwarded to the court, which the court received on 6th May 4 days after the allocation questionnaire and defence should have been received by.

 

The letter is the one i posted above but the Order says:

 

Court, claim numer, claiment and defendants details.

 

 

 

DRAFT ORDER

 

 

IT IS HEREBY ORDERED THAT:

1. The claim be stayed pending the outcome of the test case of OFT - v- other institutions case number 11862007 in the commercial court.

 

2. Permission is granted to either party to apply to lift the stay specifying why the claim should not await the test case decision.

 

3. Costs in the case.

 

 

signed (not)

 

Undated

 

 

Is there anything I can do - They have still failed to provide me with any particulars of their claim and also anything in response to my request for info.

 

Also if the court do let them have a stay and concur that my counterclaim is just an offset - how do i go about getting my court fee back?

 

Peepx

[peep]

 

The attached letter which was sent to the court with the order above says-

 

Dear Sirs

 

(Account and court details)

 

We refer to the above matter and the allocation questionnaire that is due tobe filed on or before 2 May 2008.

 

On considering the Defendants Defence and countercliam we note that the issues raised by the Defendants relate to the application of bank charges. It would seem that the defendants counterclaim is in fact a claim for set-off and not a counterclaim as the defendants suggest. As you will be aware the issue of bank charges is currently being considered by the commercial court in the case OFT-V-Various institutions to determine the issues of legal principle in relation to the recovery of bank charges debited to bank current accounts. In the circumstances we would be obliged if the court would make an order as per the attached.

 

In the circumstances of our request the Claiment does not intend to file an allocation questionnaire or defence to the counterclaim at this stage in the interest of costs and proportionality. We confirm no discourtesy is intended to the court.

 

Finally, the court will note that the defendants have requested disclosure of various documents pertaining to this matter. We have requested the same from our client and are endeavouring to provide disclosure as requested.

 

If we can be of any further assistance to the court then please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Shoosmiths

 

 

just to make reading easier

[peep]

Please can anyone clarify some things for me as the more i read the more confused i get.

I found the below on another thread regarding NatWest and wondered if any of the issued raised could be used for my case.

 

I had notified Natwest that i was initiating court proceedings against them but they have continued to add default notices against my credit rating during this whole process. They then asked if I would hold off on court proceedings against them, as described above but threatened and then issued proceedings against me.

In that case does the following apply to me regarding the OFT debt collecting advice? and can i use it in any way?

I need to have all the credit defaults regarding this lifted as my credit rating is zero chance.

QUOTE:

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE. LETTER OF INTENTION TO ISSUE PROCEEDINGS

My account is subject to a request for the return of unlawful bank charges levied and is in dispute as indicated in numerous letters from myself.

Accompanying this letter is a list of said charges now totaling £1052.39. this is in excess of the amount you are requesting.

While II am aware that NatWest, along with other banks are involved in legal proceedings with the office of fair trading regarding the legality of these charges, and that you wish store my complaint until the outcome. However you have now issued a Default Notice. In this letter you also made a threat of legal proceedings contrary to the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance.

I also note that you are to file information with credit reference agencies, if so I shall alos be submitting a claim for damages as a result of this.

I find this totally unacceptable and I am writing to inform you that I will now be issuing a County Court Claim for the charges plus interest to date.

I am aware that most courts are applying an automatic stay to such cases however in the case of banks taking legal action relating to an account in dispute any stay made by the court will be immediately lifted and the claim for unlawful bank charges heard.

The precedent for this was made by Judge Behrens on Wednesday 29th August 2007.

Please accept this correspondence in accordance with my duty under the Civil Procedure Rules to continue to pursue a settlement without the need to invoke the time of the courts

If you do not intend to defend your charges in court, but hoping that I will "just go away" I should to point out that this will not happen and you will incur further costs against you.

Take note that I will draw the Court’s attention to the fact that you have not made any attempts at settlement in accordance with the overriding objectives of CPR. Furthermore I will submit this letter to the Court as further evidence of your intransigence with my case despite my attempts at settlement and the settling by your company of all other similar claims to date.

[peep]

I think I have found what i'm looking for as pasted below.

I have from Natwest dated early last year a letter making an £ offer to our multiple LBA request for repayment of charges and if we chose not to accept a request not to proceed until the OFT case is resulted. Is this good enough?

 

 

QUOTE:

Yes- you attend court and oppose the stay quoting joncris-

 

"The banks have been told by the Mercantile Court they can continue to have a stay but if they attempt to enforce any debt comprising bank penalty charges pre OFT case the stay will be lifted upon application by the debtor/claimant and the matter allowed to proceed to trial, and the case law you refer to is:

 

 

In the High Court of Justice

Queens Bench Division

Leeds Mercantile Court

 

Before his Honour Judge Behrens

 

Claim No 7LS40812

 

Andrew Carlisle (Claimant) & Others

 

Clydesdale Bank (Trading as Yorkshire Bank) Defendant & Others

 

Date: 29th August 2007

 

 

The High Court trumps the County Court everytime.

[peep]

Bumping for advice please

[peep]

I have began to wonder if i could appeal against the requested order for a stay on the grounds of Hardship?

I am currently off work with multiple pulmonary embolisms on both lungs and am due to drop down to half pay within the next couple of weeks.

This is going to leave my family in awful financial difficuty due to not being able to cover our basic utilities and food requirements, mortgage etc?

I'm off to a rehabilitation hospital shortly so i need to get things sorted as i wont be able to deal with this when i'm away.

 

Again any advice would be appreciated, although i must admit im starting to think that i have peed you guys off somehow or my thread is in the wrong place as advice is not really been forthcoming since i started this thread:(.

 

If its just that nobody knows what i'm to do - then please could you point me in the direction of anywhere where i can get the advice i need.

 

Many thanks

[peep]

I thought I'd write an overview of what this thread is about and where am at to make it quicker to read and easier to understand.

 

In short we took the Natwest to court in August 2006 and they paid us £6000 which covered the charges and interest they had taken from our current accounts to that date.

While the court process for that claim was continuing so from August 2006 until December 2006 when they paid us out they had placed onto those same 2 accounts a further £2500 in charges and interest. In Novemebr/December of that year we took our banking buisness elsewhere and left the two accounts overdrawn the full amount of the charges that had been taken from us. Neither of these accounts have been used since but are now £5000 overdrawn through continuing charges that have been applied since then.

We immediately initiated the beginnings of the process again with the Request for repayment of charges letter followed by LBA. We didnt continue with the reclaiming at that time but began it again in mid 2007, Natwest made multiple low offers which were all refused and then asked us to hold on out court claim until the OFT test case was concluded as they would only ask for a stay anyway, so we chose to wait the outcome of the OFT test case as they requested.

Unfortunatly they then revoked on their request and began court proceedings against us and we are at the stage where we have returned our defence and counterclaim. We have completed and returned our Allocation Questionnair but Shoosmiths who are acting on behalf of Natwest have refused to submit their defence or allocation questionnair and they are now well over time but 9 days. As they say we are asking for a set off rather then having a valid counterclaim.

They have made an order for the claim to be stayed as it is over charges but i want to appeal to have this refused as i am currently ill and will be shortly going to half pay which will leave my family in severe financial difficulty.

They have also failed to supply me with my request for information which is now a month overdue and is severly disabling me from completeing my defence and spreadsheets for my counter claim.

I am also wondering if i would be able to use The rulling made by Judge Behrens on Wednesday 29th August 2007, where "The banks have been told by the Mercantile Court they can continue to have a stay but if they attempt to enforce any debt comprising bank penalty charges pre OFT case the stay will be lifted upon application by the debtor/claimant and the matter allowed to proceed to trial, and the case law you refer to is:

 

In the High Court of Justice

Queens Bench Division

Leeds Mercantile Court

Before his Honour Judge Behrens

Claim No 7LS40812

 

The reason for asking this is because we had started the process of asking for the charges to be repaid but never got to the point of issuing the claim in court. We started the process agin in 2007 but they requested we waited the OFT test case outcome and we chose too. Does the above only apply to cases that had begun the court process or can it be applied to claims where the reclaiming process itself had begun?

Also since our account has been in dispute the Natwest have entered multiple default notices against our credit records, because the NatWest, along with other banks are involved in legal proceedings with the office of fair trading regarding the legality of these charges, and they requested that they store my complaint until the outcome. However they have now issued Default Notices, and inniciated legal proceedings, isnt this contrary to the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance?.We need these to be withdrawn upon completion of this case if/when we win. So again can i use this in anyway?

As you can see i have many questions that i need help getting answers to and would appreciate any help anyone can give me.

 

Many thanks

 

Peep

[freakyleaky]

In answer to your question regarding hardship, have a read of this thread

Application for Removal of a Stay on the Grounds of Hardship

I have seen a few of these applications go in but unfortunately i have not seen any successes.

[zootscoot]

You may have more success going via the Ombudsman as they are still processing claims involving hardship. They can refuse to hear your claim if you have started court proceedings but in some instances have been willing to intervene where claims have been stayed.

 

There may be further guidance from the courts in relation to stays on the 22nd May when the judge decides whether or not any appeals will be granted. If no appeals then it may be that more courts will be willing to lift stays.

 

Best wishes

 

Zoot

[peep]

Thanks guys - i found the link very helpful and have spent hours reading so i can understand the does and donts.

 

Once i know what the judge says - as our case is currently with him, then i'm hoping i will know what to do next.

I'm willing to do the work and not makethis easy for Natwest, even if my chances of getting the stay lifted is tiny.

 

thanks for the advice - its greatly appreciated

[freakyleaky]

This is the link for the FOS. It is worth a look to prepare yourself for all eventualities.

Financial Ombudsman Service

[peep]

Oh My - Oh My, i was waiting for direction now all I got is aload of confusion.

 

The letter i got from the court says:

 

General Form of Judgement or Order - dates 14th May 2008 (didnt get it until 17th)

 

Before District Judge Royall sitting at Kings Lynn county Court, Chequer House etc

 

Upon consideration of the court file

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT Upon review of the file the Judge directs : -

 

1. Save as appears in this order, this action be stayed pending the final decision (being judgement in the action or the final appelate court, whichever is the latter) in the test case between the Office of Fair trading V National Wesminister Bank Plc and others ('the test case') or further order of the court.

 

2. The defendant shall by 4 pm 28th May 2008 serve on the claiment (and file at cort) a copy of the particulars of claim in the test case or notify the court and the claimant of a website where the statement claim may be viewed or downloaded.

 

3. The defendant shall within 21 days of the final decision in the test case at court and serve on the claiment:

 

a) A case summary of not more then 500 words setting out the effect of the final decision in the test case on this action.

 

b) Their proposed directions in this case

 

4. Upon receipt of the documents set out at paragraph 3 of this order the file be referred to a district judge to consider further directions

 

5. Either party may apply to vary or discharge this order, provided that any application is made in accordance with part 23 of the civil procedure rules and made on 21 days notice.

 

Date

 

 

It appears to me that the judge has used a template order and has assumed that I have brought this case about, which is wrong as NatWest brought this case about in order to make me pay their charges that are owing. It annoys me that Natwest can inniciate court action against me as a bullying tactic to have me pay their charges and then ask the court to stay the action. And the court not only allows them to do it but also gets all the facts of the case wrong. Its a mockery and abuse of our judicial system.

 

I am the defendant in this case and need some advice on how to respond to this letter and get the court to rectify their mistakes and actually read the file. Also making it clear that Natwest are trying to enforce me to repay the charges as the amount being enforced by them is solely owed as a consequence of them placing charges on the account.

 

I need the court to know that Natwest knew this and they have brought this case about knowingly what it is about and that they did not want it to be heard. Natwest have still refused to provide any details of their claim and my response or information, along with direction giving them 14 days to get that info to me. Again they are abusing our system and this is just not being addressed by the court.

 

I'm sorry for the rant, but i am in so much pain, sedated and feel so unwell that this is just making me worse and i'm struggling to cope with it.

 

I really do need as much help as you can muster

 

peep

Edited May 22, 2008 by peep