Chancel Repair Liability

[JonCris]

I've recently got a property pack for the house we're trying to buy and my conveyencer got a report from a company called ChancelCheck. The report says that my house is 'located within the historical boundary of a parish which continues to have a potential chancel repair liability based upon historical parish boundary data...'

 

They then proceed to try and sell me some insurance against any possible bill from the local church for repairs!

 

Has anyone heard of this and is it for real or just another way to sell insurance to the paranoid? It seems a bit extraordinary that in 2006 the church could demand money from the community.

 

It most certainly is for real & I strongly advise you to take out the insurance. Go here

 

Another member asked this question in the insurance section but I thought that this is so important to many people without them realizing it that I would start a specific thread to try & bring it everyones attention.

 

Before You read on if anyone thinks this is a windup then I strongly suggest they see their legal advisor asap particularly if they are buying a house

 

As you will note it involves the church's ancient right to demand payment from the parish for chancel repairs.

 

Re: Chancel Repair Liability

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBooker

I've recently got a property pack for the house we're trying to buy and my conveyencer got a report from a company called ChancelCheck. The report says that my house is 'located within the historical boundary of a parish which continues to have a potential chancel repair liability based upon historical parish boundary data...'

 

They then proceed to try and sell me some insurance against any possible bill from the local church for repairs!

 

Has anyone heard of this and is it for real or just another way to sell insurance to the paranoid? It seems a bit extraordinary that in 2006 the church could demand money from the community.

 

 

Above was the question & below was my answer............

 

It most certainly is for real & I strongly advise you to take out the insurance. If in doubt go here

 

http://www.peterboroughdiocesanregistry.co.uk/chancels.html

 

http://property.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14051-2267145,00.html

 

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldjudgmt/jd030626/aston-1.htm

 

 

I know all about this as since the ruling my wife now conducts these searches for her clients as matter of course.

 

As you will see form the above links this right of the church has come to particular attention because of the litigation when a family inherited a home & later they received a demand from the local parish church for, I think it was about £10,000 for chancel repairs.

 

They refused on principal & fought it all the way to the House of Lords. They lost so not only did they have to pay up they also left themselves with a huge legal bill which greatly exceeded the value of their property which I understand they had to sell. I also recall they talked in the press of going bankrupt

 

That's the bad news the good news (if you can call it that) is that their Lordships also ruled that the church must register all property that may be subject to such a charges within 10 years of their 2003 ruling by the year 2013 otherwise they will use the right to enforce this levy

 

The church are currently spending over £500,000 & have set up a special department to see that all properties at risk are registered. They recently advertised for staff in the Law Gazette

 

The definition for a liable property are those that are within a medieval parish boundry. Even newly built properties can & will be affected.

 

Needless to say my home (built in 1985) has been checked out & appears in the clear. Nevertheless we are still going to insure. The premium depends on the value of the property but I understand starts at £58 + vat for 25 years cover & I consider it a small price to pay for peace of mind.

[JonCris]

Oh please!!!!!!!!! take out the insurance for your own peace of mind, or don't its upto you.

 

The insurance company will be bonded (as they have to be) so even if they go bust your covered

 

No one, not even your lawyer, can give you a categorical assurance that the law won't some day change.

 

Car insurance might become illegal but we won't know until it happens will we.

[JonCris]

I started I simular thread some time ago a regarding this.

I will now correct a few mistaken comments that are being made

 

The case to which that is being referred too & whcih brought this to public attention was a family who inherited a property. Sometime later as they where within the ancient parish & on Glebe Land they received a bill for £7K for the repair to the Chancel. However before they would pay they required that the church give an assurance that there would be no further repair bills The church refused & the family unwisely fought it all the way to the House of Lords where they lost having incurred huge legal costs on top of the original £7K.

 

Me teas here so I'm off but I will comment later

[JonCris]

To continue from my last post.

If your conveyancer undertakes a Chancel search it DOES NOT alert the church authorities to your possible liability. What it does do is identify that your property is at risk if it is within a medieval parish boundry & possibly built on Glebe land.........therefore you can insure it.......However if you do a full search through the public records office (which some are doing) & establish beyond doubt that it is built on Glebe land then you MUST register that fact with the Land Registery & as you have confirmed the liabilty you will NOT be able to insure it.............It is best to do a simple chancel search followed by insurance if a at risk

[JonCris]

Once AGAIN I will say this. They did not have a huge bill for church chancel repairs..........The original bill was for £7K but after the church refused to give a commitment that it would be the last demand they fought the case all the way to the House of Lords.........& lost.....The vast majority of the money they owe is for legal fees they have incurred

[JonCris]

Actually it is YOU that is wrong.

The Bill VERYquickly jumped to £95,000.

Although £200,000 has been spent on legal fees, the bill for repairs is around £200,000

They have now started investigating the foundations of the church and expect the repair bill to rise even more.

Try this website for the full story.

Church of England Bankrupts Family - Home

 

I'm not wrong the original bill was £7K the rest of the repair bill has arisen subsequent to their starting legal action

[JonCris]

Further to my post 15...........Whilst I have sent an email expressing my disgust about the way this family have been treat by the church, I have to say the legal comment in the artical is very misleading.......& will if left unchallenged cause the value of some homes to be worthless.

 

This is very wrong & tantamount to scare tactics.......The legal position is that if your conveyencer undertakes a chancel search & finds there IS a RISK then you can insure against said risk...........& you don't have to inform the church..............If on the otherhand the buyer/seller searches more deeply into it & discovers for definite that your on Glebe land then you won't be able to insure it..........& again you will not be required to inform the church..........however you will be obliged to inform the Land Registry.....which in effect is the same thing

[JonCris]

I don't want to seem pedantic but this is not the case, the escalation of the repair bill is not due to the legal case.The repair bill is due to the repairs that are required to repair the church. These are approaching £250,000 including the vat and are expected to rise now the foundations are being investigated. These costs are not related to the £200,000 of legal fees, which can not be considered the "vast majority" of the money owed so far, let alone the expected costs soon to come.

 

Neither do I but I will say again....the original bill was for £7K & they sought an assurance that if they paid it they would no longer be liable for further repairs.......This was refused & that's when there started the legal action which incurred the fees............The further repair costs are subsequent to the action being started

[JonCris]

I think your arguing about sementics....I was stating that the original bill was £7K & although these repair costs have risen since the commencement of the action - until the final hearing it was now known whether these additional repair costs would be payable.....Anyway what ever the position if it were me I'd be looking for the shotgun! The C of E should be ashamed of themselves

[JonCris]

A solicitor is only permitted to pass on the actual cost to them. They are not permitted to profit from such transactions. The same also applies to such items as the Telegraphic Transfer of monies

[JonCris]

It only applies to C of E & if the property is disposed of the Chancel Repair liability ceases.

 

As for paying the £47.85 is it worth for a speedy sale, or would you rather argue over it & probably delay matters?

[JonCris]

there was a comment above in relation to a policy only being for 25 years. As already pointed out, the danger time for chancel repair will end after October 2013 as chancel repair liabilities will cease to be what's called an overriding interest at that stage.

 

Your conveyancer or solicitor should be routinely doing chancel repair liability searches as they are potentially negligent if they do not. There is still a degree of lack of knowledge on this, even within the profession.

 

There is an expectation (but no legal obligation) that a seller will fund the insurance premium required to cover the buyer and their mortgagee and indeed their successors (future buyers). The £45 policy quoted above sounds cheap and probably only covers the buyers. Far better to have successors covered too as otherwise this point will come up again if you sell before 2013 and you will be asked to fund the policy at that stage. It is of course possible that the policies will get more expensive if the Church atively starts registering its interests.

 

Finally, make sure that you keep the policy documentation safe!

 

I can assure fellow members that the church IS activley registering it's interests

[JonCris]

If you, or your solicitor, do your own search at Kew National Records Office & find you do have liability you will not be able to obtain insurance as that would be like telling your car insurer you are very likely to have an accident!

 

The insurance offered is on the basis that there is a risk & no more.

 

Nor is every property is at risk. It is only those, new or old, within medieval parish boundaries which are formally Tithe Land

[JonCris]

pommymike all of what you say is correct but for one thing & that is whilst it's very rare for chancel liability to be enforced the Church is at present using, as well as their own in house staff & outside practises to have their interest identified then registered with the LR at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds

 

IMHO if they are doing this at considerable cost then I suspect they must have a plan

[JonCris]

pommymike I can assure you it is happening I could, if it were possible, even name the Ecclesiastical Registrar Law Practises who are actively engaged in this work.

 

In addition last year the C of E was recruiting, through the legal press, staff for just this process of registration

 

The fact that as yet no one has found their property registered I can only assume that no registered property has yet been sold or too few, in the overall scheme of things are yet registered

 

I agree it should be abolished but as for getting the public on side I think your flogging a dead horse because they will think it won't ever affect them.

 

They will only realize the need to do something when they discover that every type of property whether it be new or old could be liable

[JonCris]

Sorry nice try but even God has to be insured these days.

 

An act of God is no longer a reason for exempting policy cover.

[JonCris]

On the otherhand you could just pray

[JonCris]

The Petition to the Prime Minister has today resulted in the following response from the government:

 

"Chancel Repair Liability has existed for several centuries and the Government has no plans to abolish it or to introduce a scheme for its redemption. The Government has, however, acted to make the existence of the liability much simpler to discover. From October 2013, chancel repair liability will only bind buyers of registered land if it is referred to on the land register. By that time, virtually all freehold land in England and Wales will be registered. The Government believes that this approach strikes a fair balance between the landowners subject to the liability and its owners who are, in England, generally Parochial Church Councils and, in Wales, the Representative Body of the Church in Wales. The Government acknowledges that the existence of a liability for chancel repair will, like any other legal obligation, affect the value of the property in question, but in many cases this effect can be mitigated by relatively inexpensive insurance. It is for the parties involved in a transaction to decide whether or not to take out insurance."

 

Nothing encouraging there.

 

The above is complete & utter rollocks & shows a complete lack of understanding about the problems faced by property owners.

 

In particular their ignorance is displayed for all to see where they remark that "insurance may be taken out"

 

Once a liabilty is registered insurance is not available. The current liability insurance is based on a risk of liabilty not a proven liability - pillocks

 

& these people are running the country - no wonder it's in such a mess

[JonCris]

It's going to be a major disaster when properties are registered.

 

Values will plummet I mean would you buy a home which you knew had such a liability which in theory could run into 10s of thousands of pounds & for which there is no insurance - I know I wouldn't.

 

Also it occurs to me that when the mortgage lenders cotton on to this, as the insurers have to building on flood plains, it will be nigh impossible to get a mortgage

[JonCris]

I know Many think the chances of being asked to pay Chancel repairs are so slim as to be not worth worrying about. Problem is I know that the church is now in the process of registering as much property as possible before the 2013 deadline - As this is costing them hundreds of thousands of pounds they must have a plan - or why bother?

[JonCris]

No they don't.

 

You will only discover it's been registered if you enquire or a buyer does a search which any competent conveyancer will do or risk being accused of professional negligence

[JonCris]

Then what are the Church doing & where are they recording their interest if not at the LR?

 

Also their guidance might say that a unilateral notice can be cancelled by the registered owner - the reality is that the LR will refuse to cancel even if there is no evidence of the registered owners liability.

 

It's also the case that home owners often do not know that a liability has been registered until they arrange to sell - It's usually the buyer who discovers it causing them to distrust the seller because they didn't tell them

 

There was a recent case about Xmas time when a home owner discovered, after deciding to sell, a charge had been placed against her home without her knowledge.

 

The Finance Co' Welcome claimed she owed them money for a loan but failed for almost 1 year to supply copy documents of this alleged transaction.

 

When She contacted the LR & told them that she knew nothing of this loan the LR instead of asking Welcome to provide proof of liability, as per their own guidelines, when a charge is disputed, She was told by the LR that she would have to go to court, remember She was on the verge of having her home repossessed & was being told she would have to make application to a court.

 

It was only due the intervention of a free website she went on & subsequently Lawyers that this eviction was stopped - Welcome admitted it's mistake & apologised.

 

As a footnote & whilst I'm not suggesting there's any connection, a Welcome Manager was convicted at Manchester Crown Court for creating bogus loan accounts & transferring the monies to himself to fund his drug habit - coincidence or what? - but worth knowing if only to show what consumers can be up against

 

It's also proof, if proof were needed, of the power of sites such as this

[JonCris]

Fredsie after becoming involved in the charges campaign & the gross mendacity displayed by the banks nothing but nothing would surprise me any more

[JonCris]

Nobby had you read this thread from it's beginning you would have realised it wasn't a good idea to check with Kew.............reason........rather then there being a possibility of liability you have now confirmed it beyond doubt & must now disclose the fact to any potential buyer.........& as you say you will not now get insurance..........or if you do the cost will be considerably more

[JonCris]

Forgot to mention........any potential buyer will use this fact to either withdraw from any agreed sale or at the very least as a bargaining tool to lower their offer