Cahoot Credit Agreement - Or is it?

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Good point Paul but I thought they have to supply them under a 78 request.

 

HAK

 

 

*****Just realised 1000 post*******

[pt2537]

yes mate they do

 

that said they will no doubt try to worm out of it

[Under Siege]

Thanks for all the input guy's.

I think I should leave this one be, which is a shame because as I said they are been swines and refusing to accept my offer of pro- rata payment.

 

I will just concentrate on my other creditors for the time being -

 

BarclayCard - In default

Lloyds TSB - In default

NatWest - In default

Mint - Sent application form

 

Thanks again for your help

[Having_A_Knightmare]

U.S

 

Write back to them before you give up with something like this:

 

: Consumer Credit Agreement 1974 Request

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated 26th September 2007.

 

I must inform you that you have yet to present all the information required.

 

The sections pacifically states that all documents mentioned must be presented. The original terms and conditions which form an integrated part of the agreement are missing.

 

I must remind you that until this information is made available the agreement is still in default and any action taken by you to enforce it will be in breach of section 78 and will be reported to the appropriate authorities.

 

 

You’re faithfully

 

 

Worth ago

 

HAK

 

[pt2537]

i'd spell check it first:D

[Having_A_Knightmare]

i'd spell check it first:grin:

 

Bloody ell Ive sent this letter:D

[Under Siege]

Cheers HAK & Paul,

 

Will do

[pt2537]

U.S

 

Write back to them before you give up with something like this:

 

: Consumer Credit Agreement 1974 Request

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated 26th September 2007.

 

I must inform you that you have yet to present all the information required.

 

The sections pacifically states that all documents mentioned must be presented. The original terms and conditions which form an integrated part of the agreement are missing.

 

I must remind you that until this information is made available the agreement is still in default and any action taken by you to enforce it will be in breach of section 78 and will be reported to the appropriate authorities.

 

 

You’re faithfully

 

 

Worth ago

 

HAK

 

 

sorry,its a Fail, must try harder:D:D:D:D

[Under Siege]

I will send it off tomorrow HAK, no doubt they will just send me any old T&C's though. Just like Mint did.

[Curlyben]

To be honest, hold off sending anything until they contact you with payment demands. Then hit them with the fact that what they have sent is complete cobblers

[toxicdebt]

I didn't get any T&C's either - Just the copy of the CCA (see Toxic V Cahoot). I replied telling them they had not fulfilled their requirements etc etc.

 

They sent me a letter telling me they couldn't send the actual agreement because they would then no longer have a copy themselves. (Eh?!). So I wrote back asking again for the missing documentation. In reply I got another copy of my CCA.

 

BUT...

 

When I compared the two copies both were identically placed on their photocopier. Eg the copy was slightly skewed in exactly the same way on both occasions.

 

Now If they photocopied the original first time round, then did another photo copy second time it is reasonable to expect the copy page position on the copier to be slightly different. Whereas both of my copies have exactly the same skew.

 

This suggests to me that the 'original' they have is already a scan, simply printed out from a PC. In sending me two, this would explain the same skew of both copies I have received.

 

I don't doubt the quality of my copy - It does look like a first generation copy, but it would of course, if it was scanned in to a PC - no matter how long ago that was.

 

In summary I am unsure - despite the quality - that they hold the original on paper.

 

I am about to SAR them. Lets see what the CCA looks like when I receive the SAR documentation.

[keith4444]

Hi Toxic,

 

Thats interesting! So would a copy of an enforceable agreement be valid or would they still have to produce the original? I'm thinking the latter?

[toxicdebt]

That depends on the Judge.

[angiemcp]

Hi

 

My agreement is identical to this one and I am currently in dispute with Cahoot, on a few grounds I may add. Firstly the interest rate has jumped from 7% to 20.9%, this is seen as an unsustainable debt, secondly they only refer to an assumed credit amount of £100 and are not stating the true amount, they have pre-signed this and there statment suggests that this in fact is only an application and another point is that there is no right to cancel contained within the main body of the document. I beleive this will be a tough fight but definitely one worth doing. I will post any feedback I get. I am also going to complain to the ombudsman regarding the interest rate hike.

[keith4444]

Thats interesting Angie!

Will look forward to your updates with interest.

[jellybabe]

subbing

[keith4444]

Hi Guys,

 

I have been doing some reading up on various forums and I found this:

 

IS MY AGREEMENT ENFORCEABLE( Via section 127(3) CCA1974)

PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 61(1)(0) AND 127(3) OF THE

CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 Taken from sced.6(1983/1553) regulations

 

**What do we mean by unenforceable?

In the Consumer Credit Act section 127 there is a provision for making an agreement unenforceable if it does not contain certain pieces of information.

Subsections 1,2,3,4 state which pieces of information these are, and everything mentioned there must be included within the body of the agreement, if one is missing the agreement is unenforceable.

 

How does unenforceable differ from enforceable with a court order only?

When an agreement is unenforceable it means that the court or the judge cannot make a ruling on it. The court cannot make it enforceable.

When an agreement is enforceable only by ruling of the court it means that the agreement can be stopped by the debtor but the court has the power to re-instate it and allow the credit to continue to enforce.**

 

The Prescribed Terms are these

 

A Amount of credit

A term stating the amount of credit

 

B Repayments

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-

(a) Number of repayments;

(b) Amount of repayments;

© Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) Dates of repayments;

(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

C Rate of interest

A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement

D Credit limit

This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

--------------------------

 

Which of these applies to you depends on the type of agreement you have?

 

For a Running Account (credit card) agreement

 

BC and D Apply

 

For a Restricted Use Debtor Creditor Supplier

• Where the dealer is the supplier and the creditor is the one providing the finance.

• The money can only be used for the purpose it is given.

• There is no interest on the purchase (the cash price is the same as the total price)

• And there is no advance payment

A is applicable

 

For a fixed Sum Credit Agreement

A conventional credit agreement with none of the above restrictions

 

A and B apply

 

For a Hire Agreement

 

B is Applicable

 

This paper only covers section 127(3) of the Act agreements can also be unenforceable by contravention of sections 1 and4 this will be the subject of the next paper.

Please note that these Prescribed terms where not changed in any way by the 2004/1482 Ammendments although the form in which they appear on the agreement was. Subsection127(3) was repealed on the 6th of April 2007 so that unenforceability due to 127(3) will only apply to agreemens executed before that date.

 

Now if all of that is true then I assume that these Cahoot loans fall into the "fixed sum credit agreement" catergory?

If that is the case the terms A&B apply. Certainly on my document I received back from Cahoot there was only a mention of an "assumed credit limit of £100" and nothing about the amount in question???

Also again there is no cancellation rights prescribed within the "agreement", which is another failiure to comply I'm led to believe?

 

 

Any comments on the above guys?

 

Keith

[angiemcp]

Hi Keith

 

This was the reason for me starting my fight with Cahoot as their agreement is extremely 'vague'.

 

Angie

[citocoms]

Hi Guys,

 

I have been doing some reading up on various forums and I found this:

 

IS MY AGREEMENT ENFORCEABLE( Via section 127(3) CCA1974)

PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 61(1)(0) AND 127(3) OF THE

CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 Taken from sced.6(1983/1553) regulations

 

**What do we mean by unenforceable?

In the Consumer Credit Act section 127 there is a provision for making an agreement unenforceable if it does not contain certain pieces of information.

Subsections 1,2,3,4 state which pieces of information these are, and everything mentioned there must be included within the body of the agreement, if one is missing the agreement is unenforceable.

 

How does unenforceable differ from enforceable with a court order only?

When an agreement is unenforceable it means that the court or the judge cannot make a ruling on it. The court cannot make it enforceable.

When an agreement is enforceable only by ruling of the court it means that the agreement can be stopped by the debtor but the court has the power to re-instate it and allow the credit to continue to enforce.**

 

The Prescribed Terms are these

 

A Amount of credit

A term stating the amount of credit

 

B Repayments

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-

(a) Number of repayments;

(b) Amount of repayments;

© Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) Dates of repayments;

(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

C Rate of interest

A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement

D Credit limit

This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

--------------------------

 

Which of these applies to you depends on the type of agreement you have?

 

For a Running Account (credit card) agreement

 

BC and D Apply

 

For a Restricted Use Debtor Creditor Supplier

• Where the dealer is the supplier and the creditor is the one providing the finance.

• The money can only be used for the purpose it is given.

• There is no interest on the purchase (the cash price is the same as the total price)

• And there is no advance payment

A is applicable

 

For a fixed Sum Credit Agreement

A conventional credit agreement with none of the above restrictions

 

A and B apply

 

For a Hire Agreement

 

B is Applicable

 

This paper only covers section 127(3) of the Act agreements can also be unenforceable by contravention of sections 1 and4 this will be the subject of the next paper.

Please note that these Prescribed terms where not changed in any way by the 2004/1482 Ammendments although the form in which they appear on the agreement was. Subsection127(3) was repealed on the 6th of April 2007 so that unenforceability due to 127(3) will only apply to agreemens executed before that date.

 

Now if all of that is true then I assume that these Cahoot loans fall into the "fixed sum credit agreement" catergory?

If that is the case the terms A&B apply. Certainly on my document I received back from Cahoot there was only a mention of an "assumed credit limit of £100" and nothing about the amount in question???

Also again there is no cancellation rights prescribed within the "agreement", which is another failiure to comply I'm led to believe?

 

 

Any comments on the above guys?

 

Keith

 

Keith surely it falls into the Running Account (Credit Card) Agreement category as it is a Flexible Loan, just like a credit card not a fixed repayments loan.

[citocoms]

A general point or two of interest. I have a copy of the November 2001 Terms and Conditions Booklet that accompanied the 2 sided Agreement (much like the one posted on this thread).

 

Point of interest one:

The agreement like this one does not contain a Data Protection Clause giving right to process data. Question for Forum Members How signifcant is this? Does it mean Cahoot have no right to process your data?

 

Point of interest two:

The agreement refers under 'variations' to 'In calculating APR, we have ignored any changes to the interest rate, fees or other charges which we may introduce or vary under the general condition 7 of the cahoot account terms and conditions.'

 

The actual clause in the T&Cs is clause 8; how significant is that mistake, does it make the agreement Unenforceable, or Enforceable only by a Court Order?

 

Any other thoughts welcome.

[keith4444]

Hi Citocoms

 

I think this "Flexible Loan" has similarities with a credit card account (ability to withdraw various amounts up to a limit) BUT when you apply you are applying for a set amount if I remember correctly? Just the same as conventional loans? This is not how you apply for a credit card. This is how I understood they work anyway.

 

Those other points are interesting though! I would be interested to hear what the Trading standards and FOS think of these?

 

Also does your agreement have a cancellation clause in it? I understood this was another thing that should be in there?

 

Let me know what you think

 

Keith

[citocoms]

Hi Citocoms

 

I think this "Flexible Loan" has similarities with a credit card account (ability to withdraw various amounts up to a limit) BUT when you apply you are applying for a set amount if I remember correctly? Just the same as conventional loans? This is not how you apply for a credit card. This is how I understood they work anyway.

 

Those other points are interesting though! I would be interested to hear what the Trading standards and FOS think of these?

 

Also does your agreement have a cancellation clause in it? I understood this was another thing that should be in there?

 

Let me know what you think

 

Keith

 

Keith this is the bit that confuses me slightly. It has a clause telling you how to settle the agreement, but not specifically a cancellation clause. Above the signing box it states 'The Act also gives you a number of rights. You have a right to settle this agreement at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off all amounts payable uder the agreement.' Not quite a cancellation clause. The start of the document does include a link to a separate booklet of T&Cs, which we have original, which on a brief scan does not appear to include a specific cancellation clause.

 

Their updated T&Cs contain a cooling off section, section 4.

 

Is the cancellation clause a 'prescribed condition' which would make the agreement unenforceable, or enforceable by court order only? Also does the cancellation clause only apply if their was oral representation before the agreement?

Edited April 26, 2009 by citocoms

[keith4444]

Keith this is the bit that confuses me slightly. It has a clause telling you how to settle the agreement, but not specifically a cancellation clause. Above the signing box it states 'The Act also gives you a number of rights. You have a right to settle this agreement at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off all amounts payable uder the agreement.' Not quite a cancellation clause. The start of the document does include a link to a separate booklet of T&Cs, which we have original, which on a brief scan does not appear to include a specific cancellation clause.

 

Their updated T&Cs contain a cooling off section, section 4.

 

Is the cancellation clause a 'prescribed condition' which would make the agreement unenforceable, or enforceable by court order only? Also does the cancellation clause only apply if their was oral representation before the agreement?

 

 

I'm confused too mate!

It seems that because this is a Flexible Loan it cannot be compared to conventional loans OR credit card agreements, which kind of makes it a law unto itself!!??

I'd like to know what the prescribed terms ARE exactly for this kind of agreement.

Up until now it seems they can do pretty much what they want (hence the interest rates rocketing up to unsustainable levels for most.

I suggest anyone who has this flexible loan and sint happy with the current interest rates/terms then contact the local trading standards or the FOS to lodge a formal complaint. If they get enough of them they might investigate Cahoot formally for ALL their customers.

[citocoms]

I'm confused too mate!

It seems that because this is a Flexible Loan it cannot be compared to conventional loans OR credit card agreements, which kind of makes it a law unto itself!!??

I'd like to know what the prescribed terms ARE exactly for this kind of agreement.

Up until now it seems they can do pretty much what they want (hence the interest rates rocketing up to unsustainable levels for most.

I suggest anyone who has this flexible loan and sint happy with the current interest rates/terms then contact the local trading standards or the FOS to lodge a formal complaint. If they get enough of them they might investigate Cahoot formally for ALL their customers.

 

Having looked at the legislation I feel it falls under the running-account agreement status, basically the same as a credit card. Legislation extract below:

 

10.—(1) For the purposes of this Act—

 

(a) running-account credit is a facility under a personal credit agreement whereby the debtor is enabed to receive from time to time (whether in his own person, or by another person) from the creditor or a third party cash, goods and services (or any of them) to an amount or value such that, taking into account payments made by or to the credit of the debtor, the credit limit (if any) is not at any time exceeded; and

 

(b) fixed-sum credit is any other facility under a personal credit agreement whereby the debtor is enabled to receive credit (whether in one amount or by instalments).

[keith4444]

Hmmmm it certainly IS confusing isnt it! (thats probably the whole point!).

 

How are you going to approach this then Citocoms?