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    • Post in Suing a parcel delivery company when you don't have a direct contract with them – third-party rights Copy of judgment available

      BankFodder posted a post in a topic,

      We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Parcel delivery insurance is prohibited under section 57 – Consumer Rights Act – Read about It Here and in The Times.

Cahoot Credit Agreement - Or is it?

Under Siege

By Under Siege
in Cahoot

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Under Siege

Under Siege

Posted
Posted

This from my CCA request to Cahoot.

 

It is for a Flexible loan

 

I would appreciate your views

 

TIP - If you have a lot of creditors and are going to send CCA requests to them all at the same time, make sure you have the time to deal with all the paperwork and invest in a good filing system!

At this rate I will need a secretary. :)

  • Haha 1

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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Under Siege

Under Siege

Posted
  • Author
Posted

See what I mean?

 

Im that busy I forgot the attachments!!! ;)

Cahoot_page1.pdf

Cahoot_page2.pdf

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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pt2537

pt2537

Posted
Posted

Hi Under Siege

 

ive had a quick look and from what i can see it looks ok to me, it may be worth a second or third opinion as ive only glanced over the agreement but the terms required appear to be there from first glance

 

regards

paul

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Under Siege

Under Siege

Posted
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Posted

Hi again Paul,

 

Its that different from all my other Credit Agreements I thought I would post it up here for the professionals to look at. :)

 

Don't the signatures have to be on the same page as the prescribed terms?

Plus Cahoot's signature is dated before mine! Does this have any relevance.

 

I'm doing so well at the moment with other credit agreements, maybe I'm getting a little carried away.

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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pt2537

pt2537

Posted
Posted

Hi Under Siege

 

As i said ive only had a glance, i will have a longer look this evening and see if there is anything ive missed.

 

i will need to look at the regulations to see RE the signature etc

 

regards

paul

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Fred Bassett

Fred Bassett

Posted
Posted

Subscribing. I've got a Cahoot debt too and the agreement they sent back looked OK to my untrained eyes.

 

I have to say that of all my creditors, Cahoot have been by far the most easy, pleasant and professional people to deal with. They also returned my credit agreement within the prescribed time limit. Somehow, I half expected that.

 

I'll be interested to see what comes of this thread.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

Before you criticise another man you should first walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticise him, you'll be a mile away and he won't have any shoes on.

 

Don't get me confused with somebody knowledgeable by all those green blobs. I got most of them by making people laugh.

 

I am not European, I am English.

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Fred Bassett

Fred Bassett

Posted
Posted
Hi again Paul,

 

Its that different from all my other Credit Agreements I thought I would post it up here for the professionals to look at. :)

 

Don't the signatures have to be on the same page as the prescribed terms?

Plus Cahoot's signature is dated before mine! Does this have any relevance.

 

I'm doing so well at the moment with other credit agreements, maybe I'm getting a little carried away.

 

Under Siege,

 

Did you get anywhere with this? I'm was about to start my own thread but as my case seems almost identical to yours I thought I'd see if you'd had any other responses.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

Before you criticise another man you should first walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticise him, you'll be a mile away and he won't have any shoes on.

 

Don't get me confused with somebody knowledgeable by all those green blobs. I got most of them by making people laugh.

 

I am not European, I am English.

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Under Siege

Under Siege

Posted
  • Author
Posted

not yet,

 

Ive had that much on my plate with my DMP ive not got round to it yet.

Having said that, Cahoot are the worst creditor that i have dealt with, they are refusing to accept any kind of reduced payments. Therefore I need to look into this in more detail.

 

Watch this space

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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Fred Bassett

Fred Bassett

Posted
Posted
not yet,

 

Ive had that much on my plate with my DMP ive not got round to it yet.

Having said that, Cahoot are the worst creditor that i have dealt with, they are refusing to accept any kind of reduced payments. Therefore I need to look into this in more detail.

 

Watch this space

 

Thanks for that.

 

Strangely, Cahoot have been by far the easiest one to deal with for me. They accepted the offer from the CCCS without question, have always been polite and courteous and have never given me any hassle. Just how odd is that? Things might change of course once I extricate from my DMP but I'll just have to see.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

Before you criticise another man you should first walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticise him, you'll be a mile away and he won't have any shoes on.

 

Don't get me confused with somebody knowledgeable by all those green blobs. I got most of them by making people laugh.

 

I am not European, I am English.

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Under Siege

Under Siege

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Its probably because Im arranging my own DMP, and they would rather me go through CCCS or Payplan

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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AndyOrch

AndyOrch

Posted
Posted

Hi UnderSiege

To refer you back to your question in post 4

 

In respect of the agreement, the prescribed terms should be contained in the signature document and if there is more than one document, they should relate/Link/connect to each other. :cool:

 

 

Regards

Andy

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pt2537

pt2537

Posted
Posted

True Andy,

 

the only thing which would worry me here is this document is 2 pages which appear to be front and back of an A4 sheet of paper.

 

now should this be the case and they produce this in court well, youre sh!te outta luck cause the judge may view the construction of 127(3) as giving him power to enforce such agreement

 

 

this arguement works with documents headed terms and conditions such as the one on this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/capital-one/122227-pinky-capital-one.html#post1280769

 

im not so sure this would be the case here, after revisiting the regs i cant see anything which convinces me otherwise

 

regards

paul

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Under Siege

Under Siege

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I guess that this is going to be a tough one to fight.

If I remember correctly the agreement came in the form of an A4 booklet.

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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AndyOrch

AndyOrch

Posted
Posted

" I guess that this is going to be a tough one to fight.

If I remember correctly the agreement came in the form of an A4 booklet"

 

 

Well my gut feelingis if thats the case, then they do not Relate/ link/ or connect as there are no letters/numbers and if your sig box was in the form of a booklet how could it be on the reverse of the prescribed terms?

 

Unenforcable 99% sure, there is also somthing else not quite right just checking will get back to you

 

 

Regards

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group - The National Consumer Service

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AndyOrch

AndyOrch

Posted
Posted

Hi Under Siege

 

Back to your post 4 you state about the agreement being presigned on reciept.You can have a situation where the creditor signs the agreement 1st, effectively so it becomes binding on both parties once it's signed by the debtor. The problem however, that I see with your agreement, is that they are not following the normal procedure in that the agreement becomes binding upon the sig of the debtor. They have inserted a condition precedent, which essentially means they are dispensing with the normal rules of offer and acceptance in contracts and saying that until such time as they are satisfied with their checks, the agreement is not binding. So if it didn't become binding upon you signing it, when did it? In my opinion, there would need to be a further document that both parties signed,do you recall recieving such? I would contend that this could equate to a pre-contractual document.

 

 

Regards

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group - The National Consumer Service

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Curlyben

Curlyben

Posted
Posted

Andy, I completely disagree here.

While you are correct in saying that the terms must be included within the signature document, and in this case they are, your leap to unenforceability ISN'T.

 

This agreement is just that and as such enforceable !!

Be VERY careful whose advice you listen too

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AndyOrch

AndyOrch

Posted
Posted

Has i Said Curly only 99% convinced but how would you prove they are linked/related?

 

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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AndyOrch

AndyOrch

Posted
Posted

And what if they dont?:rolleyes:

We could do with some help from you.

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pt2537

pt2537

Posted
Posted

let me also point out that this seems prima facie to be a copy of the original doc,

 

when you photocopy a photo copy you get degradation of the image. there appears to be no loss here so i would look at this as a very good copy of possibly the original document, now if this is the case GAME OVER because this could be enforced by court order providing its as suggested

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AndyOrch

AndyOrch

Posted
Posted

It may well be a very good copy of said original but still does not prove the sig box is linked to the prescribed terms, if it where i would be of the belief that surely some indentation of the sig would be visible through page 1 (ie being on the reverse) I cant see any evidence of such and as UndeSiege recalls a booklet form being recieved to sign and return, if it where the case surely there would be no need for a booklet?Just a A4 sheet What are your Thoughts?

 

 

Regards

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group - The National Consumer Service

If you want advice on your Topic please PM me a link to your thread

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Curlyben

Curlyben

Posted
Posted

Andy, you are clutching at straws here.

I have seen a number of multi-page loan agreements, I've had a few myself, and they are designed to be read as a whole and not as separate pages.

Quite often they don't reference the additional pages at all.

 

Now as the OP has already mentioned that they remember that this agreement was in the form of an A4 booklet, why are you flogging a dead horse ?!

Be VERY careful whose advice you listen too

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Having_A_Knightmare

Having_A_Knightmare

Posted
Posted

Where are the original Terms and Conditions

 

HAK

  • Haha 1

Click here for great help:razz:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

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