Moorcroft Debt Recovery - Follow up

[PriorityOne]

Your Mum doesn't have to show Moorcroft anything. They have no legal authority to turn up and demand anything...

 

I had a visit from them years ago... a surprisingly nice guy. Even so, he was told in no uncertain terms to sling his hook. Your Mum needs to do the same.

[Blackpool]

Yeah, my mum said he was very polite.

 

He said he would come back, but i'm out at work everyday.

[PriorityOne]

I think his visit is probably part of a backlog... same as mine was. Your Mum doesn't have to open the door, but if she does... then he shouldn't be discussing anything with her anyway because the account's yours.

 

Chances are that no-one at Stockport HO has told the poor berger that the account's also in summary criminal default of a CCA request either.

 

[loyalbrummie]

nice bloke or not , ring the police and get them shifted the pondlife , this is in dispute so what they are doing is against rules , lets play hardball with these vermin .

[ODC]

Hi guys.

 

Long time, no see - hope you all had a great christmas and new year!

 

After having no further communication from Moorcroft i assumed they'd seen sense.

 

Alas no, whilst at work today a moorcroft representative called at the house and was asking my mum for proof that we didn't owe moorcroft anything.

 

It's that long ago she had forgotten i had told her to send them away.

 

Advice on how to deal with this would be, as ever, greatly received.

 

Many thanks in advance.

I think its time you reported the idiots to TS. Write and ask them for the name of the doorstepper as you want to include his name on the civil summons you will be serving on them for trespass

[mercyblue]

So a guy turns up asking for proof you dont owe them any money. Maybe I should randomly knock on people's doors and ask for proof they don't owe me any money! Seems effectively what this guy was doing.

[Blackpool]

I have drafted the following to send to Moorcroft, does it look okay?

Any comments, suggested alterations, etc, greatfully received.

"I am writing in regard to your representative calling at my home.

 

To date your company remains in breach of my legal request for a Consumer Credit Agreement (Consumer Credit Act 1974); received by yourselves on 02/10/2007. Until such time as you are able to comply with my request, no payments will be forthcoming to anyone and no further discussion will be entered into.

 

In my correspondence dated 20th November 2007, I reminded you of your legal obligation to make an appointment with me if you were to conduct a home visit. No appointment was made; hence I am of the opinion that this visit broke OFT rules.

I am now making an official compliant to the relevant authorities regarding your conduct in this matter, and require you to furnish me with the details of your doorstep representative so that he can be included in the complaint."

[ODC]

I would add the following

 

FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF ANY DOUBT

There is only an implied license under Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and civil action will be taken.

[spamheed]

they're like those weeble toys, they wobble away, but just don't fall down.

 

we accept that we cannot enforce the debt, but intend to keep on breaking the law instead

[ScarletPimpernel]

Not forgetting to include these 'unfair practices' from the OFT Guidance, of course:

 

disclosing or threatening to disclose debt details to third parties unless

legally entitled to do so

disclosing debt details to an individual when it is uncertain that they are

the debtor in question, for example, disclosing details to 'the occupier' of

an address.

[Blackpool]

Unbelievable - this is Moorcroft's response:

 

"I am disappointed to note that despite our letters and attempted personal calls by our local representative no satisfactory agreement has been reached regarding the balance outstanding of £166.70 on the above account.

 

In one last effort to come to an arrangement to prevent more serious action being taken we will be prepared to accept repayment by instalments of £10.00 per month. A Post Office paying in slip is attached to enable you to make your first payment. On receipt of this payment we will forward further slips to you.

 

Unless a payment is received by 10.00am on 06/03/2008 we may recommend court proceedings to be commenced against you without further notice.

 

Such action could incur you in further costs and may also affect your future credit rating. It is therefore in your best interests to give this matter your immediate attention.

 

Alternatively you can pay using a debit or credit card by telephoning the above number."

 

I now want to report moorcroft to the relevant authorities, if anyone has a template i could use, or advice on wording, i would be very grateful.

 

Many thanks in advance.

[ODC]

Report them to TS and the OFT. Also write to Moorcroft and demand a copy of their complaints procedure. When they have given you their pathetic final response to your complaint then report them to the FOS who will charge them £400 to investigate your complaint. You could also send them (Moorcroft) the following CB Special.

 

Dear Idiots,

 

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated **********, the contents of which are noted

 

You attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On xx/xx/2007 I requested ********supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ******** have failed to comply with my request and have totally ignored my written reminders sent via recorded delivery of this fact. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you or *******, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in s78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify s61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ********* become compliant with my request. As ****** are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

• All charges levied since ******** 2007 be removed from the account and further charges cease until such time as ******* comply fully with my original request or such time as a court makes an enforcement order
  
• All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file
  
• All collection activities by your company cease with immediate effect until ******** comply with my request from ********* 2007 or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Regards

[Blackpool]

Result - Moorcroft have finally seen sense!

 

Got two letters today, both saying they are unable to provide signed CCA, so are closing the account & passing it back to Orange.

 

A big thank you to everyone who gave advice.

 

Another victory for the forum

[ODC]

Orange and a CCA???? Silly Moorcroft should know that Mobile phone agreements arent covered by the CCA

[Blackpool]

Well hello all, i am back again!

 

I thought Orange had seen sense, but have now received a letter from direct legal & collections:

 

"We have been instructed by our client to obtain immediate payment of the balance outstanding.

 

A default may have been registered against your credit file with a credit reference agency. This could affect your ability to obtain future credit if payment is not made.

 

You must telephone us immediately on 0870 7469048 to make payment of £428.84.

 

Failure to respond to this letter may result in legal action."

 

Moorcroft were chasing a balance of £166.70 - not sure where the other £260 has come from.

 

Do i have to start all over again, sending dlc a £1 cheque requesting a CCA, and go through the same procedure, or is there any way i can put a halt to this?

 

I keep getting missed calls on my phone from a witheld number, as well as these threatening letters. I do not owe Orange any money and this is getting ridiculous.

 

As before all advice is gratefully received.

 

Many thanks in advance.

[ODC]

Dear Cretins

 

You have contacted me/us regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself/ourselves.

 

I/we would point out that I/we have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to (insert company name).

 

I am/we are familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

 

I/we would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

 

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

I/we would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my/our liability for the debt in question.

 

I/we await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

 

I/we look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

[Blackpool]

Hiya guys. Sent the above letter recorded delivery, received this reply from dlc today:

 

Date: 30 June 2008

Client: Orange Personal Communications Ltd

Blanace Outstanding: £428.84

 

You have failed to make payment or respond to our letters.

 

Whilst our client, Orange..., has every right under your contract to commence legal action, we are able to offer you a final opportunity to settle this matter.

 

We can accept £321.63 to settle your account in full.

 

This offer is available providing that payment is made within 7 days from the date of this letter. To take advantage of this offer, you should contact us on 0870 7469048 today.

 

You should be aware that unless this balance is paid, this debt will remain on your credit file for 6 years.

 

Yours sincerely,

Jason Reeve

Team Leader

============================================

 

As always, many thanks in advance for advice given

[ODC]

Dear Cretins

 

Are you really that stupid.

 

I have asked you for proof of the alleged debt. Instead you send me another of your begging letters which totally fail to respond to my queries. I do note however that you refer to an alleged contact you claim exists between myself and your client. I would obviously require sight of this contract if it actually exists.

 

In the meantime please take this as a formal complaint about your methods of debt collection and send me by return a copy of your complaints procedure. I reserve the right to report your complany and its activities to the OFT with a view to possible breaches of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Practices Regulations 2008.

 

yours etc

[Blackpool]

Hello again.

 

Sent above letter to dlc. Received reply on 10th July enclosing internal complaints procedure, and stating "I have also referred to our client for the information you require and will contact you again on receipt of their reply".

 

Received another threatening letter in the meantime, threatening to send an agent to my address to collect payment.

 

Today received another reply dated 10th July referring to letter dated 10th July! quoting Orange as saying "We are unable to provide copies of the agreement as Orange contracts are paperless".

 

"Please forward payment of £424.84 within the next seven days or we may have no alternative but to take further action against you for recovery of the same".

 

They are also ringing constantly, but thanks to caller ID i know it's them.

 

As always all comments greatfully received, many thanks in advance.

[sillygirl1]

Report them to Trading Standards and the OFT, without paperwork they CANNOT enforce this debt, more especially they CANNOT ENFORCE VIA THE COURTS.

 

Send them the "I do not acknowledge..." letter again stating they have 7 days to come up with documentation or you will report them to the OFT and Trading Standards for harrassment.

[Blackpool]

Hello all.

 

Sent the CCA request to dlc with a £1 cheque, got the following reply today:

 

"Thank you for your letter dated 30 July 2008 regarding the above account. I can confirm and advise the following:

 

1. Hillesden Securities T/A direct legal & collections are an agency collecting on behalf of our client, Orange Personal Communications Limited.

 

2. Your request for information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is required to be made to the original client - Orange PC Ltd.

 

3. Please note that mobile phones are not covered under the Consumer Credit Act 1974; therefore there will be no contract available for this account.

 

4. We have removed your contact telephone number from our records and will continue to pursue you through written communication only.

 

5. Please note that if you do not keep a regular dialogue with us regarding this account and update us accordingly, our guidance from the Information Commissioner states that we are entitled to re-instate your contact telephone number to continue collection activity on the account when required.

 

Further to the above, please find enclosed the £1 cheque received for your Consumer Credit Act 1974 request.

 

==================================================

 

How should i respond to this letter? All advice greatfully received, many thanks in advance.

[ODC]

Hello all.

 

Sent the CCA request to dlc with a £1 cheque, got the following reply today:

 

"Thank you for your letter dated 30 July 2008 regarding the above account. I can confirm and advise the following:

 

1. Hillesden Securities T/A direct legal & collections are an agency collecting on behalf of our client, Orange Personal Communications Limited.

 

2. Your request for information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is required to be made to the original client - Orange PC Ltd. Wrong. Morecrap ar the ones chasing this alleged debt therefore therfor they should be the ones contacting orange for the info not you.

 

3. Please note that mobile phones are not covered under the Consumer Credit Act 1974; therefore there will be no contract available for this account. BALLS. True Mobile phones are not covered in general by the CCA 1974. There must be some written proof that you had a contract with Orange.

 

4. We have removed your contact telephone number from our records and will continue to pursue you through written communication only.

 

5. Please note that if you do not keep a regular dialogue with us regarding this account and update us accordingly, our guidance from the Information Commissioner states that we are entitled to re-instate your contact telephone number to continue collection activity on the account when required. What guidance are they referring to

 

Further to the above, please find enclosed the £1 cheque received for your Consumer Credit Act 1974 request.

 

==================================================

 

How should i respond to this letter? All advice greatfully received, many thanks in advance.

Usual mixture of half truths

[jola188]

This is my first post so Hi everyone.

 

I found this forum when doing a phone number search on Google, the reason why?

 

A few years ago I was made redundant and after struggling to pay the cards I was recommended to go Debt Management which I did and they seem to keep things on an even keel.

 

However; I became very nervous at the (prolonged) experience and suffered depression etc as I suppose many do in that position. I am still jittery and sometimes slightly paranoid about thinking about what could go wrong from here/visits etc.

 

Anyway and sorry to be verbose but In our local paper there was an advertisement for Self Employed Collectors and I immediately thought they were after me, only!

 

After the search it turned out to Moorcroft Job Search-UK - View Jobs advertising in several counties and then I found this forum which is packed with very interesting information.

 

I don't know what my point is but there you go and I just wanted confirmation if these companies employ heavies to get results but it seems they were polite, thanks.