Hello Honeybee Thanks for replying! I have just dropped Postggj a PM... i know he is alwasy busy helping people on other threads etc. I think I will have to start a serious think about how to knock a further letter up to send to them re: trying to get an agreement for monthly payments outside of court action. If nothing else, this could be submitted as part of my documents to the court, again showing me trying to resolve the situation. What do you think? worth a shot? Thanks again HB M2000

Postggj - not sure if you have been online, but did you get chance to have any thoughts re a letter for this? If not, I will need to start preparing one myself and also start building the document bundle, as this is required to be filed at the court next week. Thanks matey

Thanks again for everyones advice.. it really is helping and is very much appreciated. I am still very worried which probably sounds a little silly as it's not life or death, but i really worry about having a ccj and the whole going to court. I understand I just have to try and keep calm, and present my side of the story, but not sure I will be able to put it accross to thie judge in the best way.... i may forget things etc. Any hints? Postggj- have you had any more thoughts about writing a letter to them?

"M2000 - did you ever speak to the tax office about it? I'm still thinking that, because when you pay towards the cost of the upgraded car as in your case, this has a positive effect on your tax bill. Assuming the worst and you are liable to pay this money to your ex employer then surely you should be able to offset it or some of it against your current year's total tax? If the tax office are vague or before contacting them (if you haven't) perhaps you could try posting on an accountancy forum? " Hi Pippadee, Thanks for replying again! Yes, I tried the tax office, but they really didn't have a clue. They did say it's likely I would be paying more than the standard car in terms of taxation, but didn't know/wouldn't say if I am able to offset this on my tax return. I am going to try and chat with an accountant, but really carn't afford any fees at the moment. Thanks again, I appreciate all your time!

Hi all, I am wondering if I should make a further offer for monthly payments, on a "without admitting liability, but in an affort to resolve the matter without the cost and time of court" They have previously turned down my offers of £50 and £75 per month, but this was much earlier in the process and prior to court proceedings. They stated they wanted a minimum of £200 per month (more than the urgade was) I am thinking another offer of £75.00 per month. I could then also use this letter as further evidence to the court of my trying to resolve the issue without wasting their time further. Any thoughts?

Hi Postggj - have you had any more thoughts on this? Thanks in advance M2000

Hi Mossy, thanks for replying. I probably didn't explain that last posing very well... The main issue is obviously the upgrade costs, and yes I did make the upgrade choice. What I was trying to say is, if the company is not willing to show me the lease which they hold with the fleet company, how can i possibly check that the upgrade cost or indeed the actual monthly payment is correct? my ex-employer could be charging me a lot more than the true cost. I do feel that they should be transparant and show me the lease documents they have in place with the fleet company. I understand what you are saying i.e. that I agreed with upgrading, but I have never actaully signed anything specific to the vehicle in question. I signed a generic car policy, but no contract exisits nor does any bit of paper exist (that I recall) which outlined what vehicle I ordered, my monthly upgrade amount and the term. i.e. there is no specific document tying me to the car in question and the upgrade costs. What I am trying to say is why can they not furnish me with my vehicle order form? I do not recall signing anything other than the generic car policy, which obviously isn't specific enough nor does it outline the monthly upgrade costings. Also, I do take a grudge with the fact that have they actually even attempted to return the vehicle to the lease company? this 'may' have allowed them to reduce the alleged debt, but we will never know as they havn't furnished the documents. Furthermore... should anyone be expected to sign anything when just started and on probabtion period... i.e. this could potentially be locking a person into a car contract when the car might not even have been delivered if it has a long lead time and they leave/get pushed. I have also made attempts to keep the matter from court, i have genuinly offered to pay back £50 a month until its cleared, but they want circa £200 a month which is MORE than the monthly upgrade was!!! I can only afford the £50 a month and they have carried on to this stage and am just pulling my hair out. Sorry for the long posting, hope its clear enough and not too waffly? Thanks M2000

The thing is though Mossy, how do I, or anyone else for that matter, have any ability to check that what they are saying is the right lease amount/monthly payment/ term of lease is actually correct.... It smacks of them trying to hide something. Surely they are effectivly providing me a lease directly (rather than me having contract with fleet company) so therefore shouldnt they be supplying a signed lease agreement bearing my signature agreeing to vehicle specific payments, number of months, interest rate blah blah blah?? I get more annoyed the more I think about it.... I just wish they didn't have such (apparantly) well respected lawyers ( a LARGE firm!) Grrr!

Hi Mossycat- I can see what you mean... but as usual it's rather a spiteful action. I have heard 'on the grapevine' that the guy who now drives my old car actually ordered the same vehicle, but there was a long delivery schedule. However, when I left the company and my car became available he got first refusal. Surely he should have been asked to contribute something towards the car if he ordered one anyway? it was only 6 months or so old! They could, in my opinion, at least attempted to mitigate some of the lsos by asking him to contribute say 1/2 the normal rate? The BIG issue I have is getting this argument acrross and backing it up..... no one will act as a witness or provide a statment about the new driver. The company is very much an old boys club, and they hate being stood-up to..... hence the situation I am now in..

Hi Postggj, That would be great.. you clearly are familiar with what to do! I really appreciate your time with this!! Thanks so much

Hi, yes i can find £75.00 if you think this cause of action will help?.... Are you confident that i havn't made a major clanger in the way I have acted/defended the claim? Thanks

They have not provided any access to documents. ie. the lease agreement. So how do i know what they are saying is right? It is all rather corrupt!

I know Postggj - I am hitting a brick wall with them. The solicitor acting on behalf of my ex-employer comes accross as rude and threatening. The hearing is on 17th June... I need to provide documents i wish to reply on to the court by 21st May. I jsut don't know what to do next, they are so confident they are in the right and i am in the wrong.

Hi Postggj- I did request those things, via the CPR request: "Dear Sirs, Re: XXXXXX (Claimant) v Mr XXXX (Defendant) Case No: XXXXX CPR 31.14 Request I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest your entire claim. Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of the following documents: 1) The lease agreement which exists between XXXXXX and XXXXXX Fleet Solutions. This should be the specific lease agreement for vehicle registration XXXXXXXXX. You will appreciate that without sight of the original lease agreement I am unable to establish: a. Whether the perceived loss claimed may have been mitigated by the returning the vehicle under the terms of any early redemption clause attached to this agreement. b. Whether downgrading the vehicle would be possible under any relevant term of that contract which may or may not exist. c. To establish whether the interest claimed upon the perceived loss is lawfully due. 2) A copy of the vehicle order form, specific to vehicle registration XXXXXXX. 3) A copy of the signed agreement between the new employee of XXXXX Financial Services who is now responsible for the said vehicle." They have today replied with : "Dear Sir, Thank you for your letter dated XXXXXX The documents which you require are not mentioned in the Statements of Case and therfore it is inappropiate for you to require them by reference to CPR Part 31.14. Your letter together with previous correspondence from you is an attempt to raise the issue of mitigation of losses. The contract between you and our clinet, as evidenced by the documents which you signed and which were attached to the statement of case, provide for liquidated damages to be paid in the event of leaving the Society, and as such the issue of mitigation of loss is not relevant. We are not prepared to enter into further correspondance with you on that subject. Instead we will comply with the order dated XXX made by Distrcit Judge XXXX and expect you to do likewise. Yours faithfully, XXXXXX " HELP!

There is a section in the Company Car Policy: " 10.0 Ordering Your Society Car A) Re-allocation Of Pool Vehicles As part of the Wesleyan Car Scheme, if there are vehicles in the ‘pool’ these will be re-allocated to new starters or those whose vehicle is due for renewal. Individuals allocated a vehicle in such circumstances will retain this vehicle until the end of the vehicles lease at which point the normal rules for ordering will apply" However, this still doent show that the Claimant couldn't have mitigated losses by retuning the car under an early return clause within the lease agreement. Also, I have no way of knowing if the person now driving my car is paying anything towards it.

Hi Postggj, Here is the POC which I recieved: " Breach of contract - monies owed as a result of the Defendents termination of employment with the Claimant, by virtue of his resignation." Value £ 4,485.32 plyus interest, see particlars of claim. Amount claimed £4,734.24 Court fee £108.00 Solicitors Costs £80.00 Total amount £4922.24 Particulars of Claim: 1. The Claimant is a company speciailisng in the provision of XXXX services and is a wholly owned subsidiary of XXXXXX . 2. The Defendant was employed by the Claimant. This employment commenced on 31st March 2008. The Defendants most recent role within the Cliamant's firm was as a XXXXX. 3. On the 15th February 2008 the Defendant signed a statement of terms and conditions of Employment, a copy of which are attached. It was these terms and conditions that governed the Defendants employment with the Claimant at the time of termination. 4. On the 15th February 2008 the defendant also signed an addendum to those terms and conditions which related to the Claimants car policy, a copy of which is attached. By signing this acknowledgement the Defendant acknowledged that he has read and understood the Claimants car policy booklet and agreed to abide by its terms and conditions. 5.Section 7 of that policy booket relates to vehicle upgrades and states that " the Society will reclaim any outstanding trade up amount from any driver trading up should they leave the Society prior to the end of the contract date. For example; if you have a vehicle on a 36-month contract at £100 per month, if you leave after 18 months you will owe £1800.00. This money will be required to be repaid on leaving." 6. The Defendanct tendered his resignation to the Claimant in May 2009. This was accepted by virtue of the Claimants letter dated 13th May 2009. The defendants effective date of termination was 19th May 2009. 7. Upon leaving his employent the Defendants owed the Claimant £4,485.32, being the balance due as a result of a company car upgrade. 8. The Claimant has written to the Defendant on a number of occasions requesting this debt from the Defendant. A final letter before action was sent to the Defendant on 5th November 2009. 9. The Claimant also claims interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum from the date that the debt was due for payment until the date of issue of this claim form, amounting to £248.92 10. The Claimant is further entitled to claim interest at the daily rate of £0.98 from the date hereof until judgement or payment, whichever is sooner. AND the Claimant claims:- 1. £4,485.32 2. Interest pursuant to Section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum, equivilant to £248.92 to the date of issue hereof. 3. Further interest pursuant to Section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum, continuing daily at the rate of £0.98 until judgment or sooner payment."

There is also this section in the company car policy on the final page: " 34.0 Society Car Policy Acknowledgement I understand and authorise that I will be responsible for monthly deductions direct from my salary for any upgrade / accessory costs above ‘benchmark’ for the vehicle I order. I further confirm on leaving if any sum in respect of the above is still outstanding this will be deducted from final salary, or I will meet this payment direct to the Society. I understand and authorise the deduction from my salary of any fines, congestion charge, penalty charge, administration fees and any excess relating to incidents involving my vehicle as notified in advance by the Society"

Can someone please clarify exactly what is a liquidated loss??

Hello Kraken1, This is the section from the Company Car Policy: " 7.0 All Grades Trading Up Trade up contributions will be deducted from your monthly pay following delivery. Please note the Society will reclaim any outstanding trade up amount from any driver trading up should they leave the Society prior to the end of the contract date. For example; if you have a vehicle on a 36-month contract at £100 per month, if you leave after 18 months, you will owe £1800. This money will be required to be repaid on leaving."

Hello All, More drama.... I sent the letter and today (to my suprise at how quickly) recieved the following reply... have I made a major boo-boo here? "Dear Sir, Thank you for your letter dated XXXXXX The documents which you require are not mentioned in the Statements of Case and therfore it is inappropiate for you to require them by reference to CPR Part 31.14. Your letter together with previous correspondence from you is an attempt to raise the issue of mitigation of losses. The contract between you and our clinet, as evidenced by the documents which you signed and which were attached to the statement of case, provide for liquidated damages to be paid in the event of leaving the Society, and as such the issue of mitigation of loss is not relevant. We are not prepared to enter into further correspondance with you on that subject. Instead we will comply with the order dated XXX made by Distrcit Judge XXXX and expect you to do likewise. Yours faithfully, XXXXXX " What the heck can I do here? They are beginning to worry me with how the are coming accross!! PLease help!!

*bumpety bump*

Many thanks Bigredbus- looks like its good to go! I will get it printed and sent tomorrow by recorded post. I presume I should then file a copy of this letter and any response recieved as part of the bundle of documents which the court has requested in the directions? Many thanks once again, your help really is most useful! M2000

Thanks Bigredbus! When you say "Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 - Documents referred to in statements of case - for the disclosure and the production of a verified (true) and legible copy of the following documents:" are you referring to my submitted defence as the statements of case? or am i being confused (easily done) by legal jargon!!!

Hi Bigredbus. Thanks for your reply and the help... was the rest of the letter ok? i hope i was referencing the correct CPR numbers?? Thanks again

Hello Kraken and all, I have had a look at the CPR disclosure rules, think I have confused myself even more, but never the less, I have knocked together the following CPR document, I am not sure if I have hit the key CPR points, can you please cast your eye over and check it is ok??? FIRST DRAFT "Dear Sirs, Re: XXXXXX (Claimant) v Mr XXXX (Defendant) Case No: XXXXX CPR 31.14 Request I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest your entire claim. Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of the following documents: 1) The lease agreement which exists between XXXXXX and XXXXXX Fleet Solutions. This should be the specific lease agreement for vehicle registration XXXXXXXXX. You will appreciate that without sight of the original lease agreement I am unable to establish: a. Whether the perceived loss claimed may have been mitigated by the returning the vehicle under the terms of any early redemption clause attached to this agreement. b. Whether downgrading the vehicle would be possible under any relevant term of that contract which may or may not exist. c. To establish whether the interest claimed upon the perceived loss is lawfully due. 2) A copy of the vehicle order form, specific to vehicle registration XXXXXXX. 3) A copy of the signed agreement between the new employee of XXXXX Financial Services who is now responsible for the said vehicle. You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case. Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party. In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request. If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence. If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order. I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you. Yours faithfully, Mr M2000" I have done a LOT of copying and pasting etc, so not sure if it's right? Can anyone think of futher documents I should request? Thanks again! M2000