Yeah it's ridiculous, it will be seen now as a bitter blow by those who don't know the full story simply becuase the beeb et al are reporting it as a bitter blow..

I have just seen him interviewed and he says he will be appealing but then I read that he has been denied an appeal - how does that work then?

Thanks Tom, that makes it a lot clearer

I think if i understand what tomtom is saying that the surest way to get a copy (i.e. find out if they actually have one) is to request it as pre disclosure in a court case.. I'll leave it to tt though as this is way out of my knowledge zone!

Doesn't have to be signed for purposes of a CCA request but does to be enforced in court isn't it?

The whole thing is full of inconsistancies at the moment I'm afraid, I'm not as well up on it as many here but from what I can see we are still learning as we go along - I think believe it or not that this goes for ccc's too.. Some CCC's seemed to have got wise to this part: "For the purposes of complying with a request under CCA s77/78, the creditor may omit from the 'copy' agreement any signatures, the name/address of the debtor and 'office use' information. (Consumer Credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983)." So basically they can just provide you with a copy sans signatures and still have complied lawfully with your request (i think) However, in order for them to enforce the agreement in court they must provide the proper true executed agreement with all the precribed terms and signatures. The crux is whether you see them using this loophole as meaning that this means they haven't got a true CCA or whether they are just using it because they can.. from what I have read we don't seem to have a definitive answer on this one

Hi Jane Queenie, if you have a look at this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/104839-morgan-stanley-have-eaten.html you will see someone in the same situation. In summary they have sent you a copy of the standard agreement, possibly this does comply with all they need to do under the cca with regards to your request. However if they want to enforce the agreement in court they will need to provide the true signed copy to do so

Hi Monty Someone else will be around who knows a bit more than me but as I understand it, it states somewhere that the ccc doesn't have to provide you with a signed copy when you request your CCA, they can just provide you with a copy that has all the relevant info on. However, if they wanted to enforce the debt in a court of law then they have to produce a true executed copy with both signatures. (afaik)

do they have to provide a true executed copy as part of a SAR then? I must admit this isn't an area I have looked into. When I claimed back my bank charges from Lloyds I didn't have to do a SAR as all the info was available on line. So subsequently i don't know much about the procedure especially relating to CC's:???:

This is a conversation me & my mate have been having. He has recieved the same from MS / Goldfish and I have said to him that they have complied by what they have sent but what to do next? Do you assume that because they only sent a basic copy they haven't got a true executed agreement? If you send a letter requesting it again the likelhood is they will just reply saying they have complied as much as they are required to. So do you wait for them to keep chasing and eventually go down the court route or is there a way to expedite matters and to get out of them whether they actually have the true executed copy or not? Its a tricky one, i guess you could just ignore them and stop paying and then if it goes to court hope they will not be able to provide the true copy or even if they do hope the judge will take a dim view on them not coming up with it earlier..? Trouble is with this is that they have complied

Cheers Seq, will let everyone know - really only just starting out on this path - have been reading and reading - knowledge is power!

I have a credit card debt of 3k currently under a self managed dmp. The creditor has been unable to provide a properley executed CCA. Whilst I understand that I am now under no obligation to pay anything back it's not guaranteed that this wont result in a long drawn out battle of harrassment and letters and also it could be a long time before the matter is fully settled to my complete satisfaction - i.e. the debt written off and all data removed from cra's. In view of this, making a F&F Settlement for say 10% has in my eyes some merits. Of course I will make sure that any F&F is fully supported by letters from the creditor confirming it to my satisfaction. A couple of questions arise from this scenario: 1. Is it likely that in view of the creditor knowing that they are unable to provide a properley executed CCA that they will accept a F&F Settlement offer that is an offer of £300.00 and that all adverse data must be removed from CRA's 2. Is offering a vastly reduced F&F on the back of a creditor being unable to provide a CCA potentially a slightly dangerous contradiction on my part? I'm thinking that by offering the F&F I am therefore acknowledging the debt and that asking for data to be removed from CRA's is not something that the creditor could comply with because if they agree to the settlement then they would also have to by law record this data with CRA's and this therefore could mean that adverse data could still remain on CRA's? I imagine on the F&F letter I could state that I am not acknowledging the debt but as a gesture of good will and to save costs and time for both parties I am willing to make the 10% offer

Unfortunately I don't think you will have any joy, have been looking at the OFT statement on this and 8.5 says: "8.5 What is meant by ‘credit limit’? Sch 6 para 3 applies to running-account credit agreements. In such cases the agreement must include a term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined, or that there is no credit limit. This is also required by Sch 1 para 8 – see Q3.10. The credit limit may, by virtue of Sch 1 para 8, be expressed as a sum of money, or a statement that the credit limit will be determined by the creditor from time to time and notified to the debtor, or a sum of money together with a statement that the creditor may vary the credit limit from time to time and notify the debtor. " However I am only just getting my head round all of this myself so hopefully someone will come along to correct me. http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_credit/oft786a.pdf I found this on the sticky here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/83035-guidelines-requests-original-agreement.html I missed this before I started the thread but I suppose at least it is there for all to see now

Great! Thanks Seq, I got it now i think! So sorry to be a pain disregard point 1 amount of credit for CC CCA's as point 2 credit limit is basically the same thing??

Thanks sequenci, This is for my mate, i haven't done my cca's yet. His is a monument agreement and it's the same as Davefirewalkers, there's no creditor signature, no credit limit, no apr - so I'm sure that it is unenforcable.. What I am trying to get my head around is that Josie said these are the prescribed terms: "The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows: amount of credit – see Q8. credit limit – see Q8.5 rate of interest – see Q8.6 repayments – see Q8.9." I am wondering how amount of credit and repayments relate to a cca for a credit card. Do we work on the fact that credit limit and rate of interest are the relevant prescribed terms to look out for on a CC CCA and amount of credit and repayments should be ignored as not applicable to a CC CCA??