As part of my defence? Or a separate application? Sorry, I'm a bit of a numbskull when it comes to court

Hi Andy Harassment - I asked for all the pertinent phone records to prove it. Damage to reputation - They applied the default whilst they were in default themselves. Also the notice period was given as 24hrs.

Many thanks Paul. Out of interest, they actually did actually come up with an application form, but it was illegible, so according to the 83 reg's (1553?) they are still in default.

I am being sued by a ccp that is in default of an s77 agreement request. There is little cause of action in their claim, just a statement saying "rosie owes us xxxx, details already provided." Well, I sent a request for disclosure for a whole load of stuff, including the agreement, only to be told that they can't send me anything as "the court is dealing with it." Now, I'm no expert in CPR, but might this mean that in refusing to send me anything that any document listed in my request is inadmissible? I would really appreciate any learned opinion on this. I have until Monday to file a defence and counter-claim. Many Thanks Rosie

I don't think they could do so legally, but I wouldn't put it passed them. It is my understanding that offset, is an entirely contractual matter - there is no statutory right to it. Perhaps it might be a good idea to scan the T&C's of your agreement to see if they can offset in that manner. Whatever the T&C's, I would think it prudent to open another account if you are in dispute. Out of interest, at it's inception, HBOS was initially a junior partner (30%?) in Sainsbury's Bank, the other partner being J Sainsbury plc, but they have since upped their share to 50%.

Hi there. What have they actually sent you?

Hi DM All the supposed differing companies under the HBOS are no more than brands. Sainsbury's Bank, Halifax, Bank of Scotland, AA Finance, the list goes on... Away from the high street they share the same premises, staff and data systems. Case in point: I am currently defending and counterclaiming against Sainsbury's Bank, the claim was issued by Bank of Scotland. Kind Regards Rosie

Hello RV If NW do not have an agreement then it is most unlikely that they will be able to enforce any court action against you for recovery. If you requested the copy agreement (12 working days) before they defaulted on your s77 request then NW were not in a position to enforce ANY of the contracts terms - including the passing of data to CRA's as they were themselves in default of any CCA regulated agreement. As such the default could be construed as damage to your reputation from Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society Have a look over on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/data-protection-default-issues/115630-pricing-default.html#post1153160

It was some time ago now, but I may have been the first here to use the "no CCA = no default" arguement. That worked for defaults issued by HSBC (3K - settled), MBNA/Link Financial, (7K - 4K outstanding) and a car HP agreement.

Am I correct presuming you're using this argument to prove compliance with an s78 only? Your imaginary creditor isn't actually trying enforce an illegible copied document is he? Agreements with similar layouts may have differing interest rates... How could a creditor prove them? Rosie

Sorry if this has been dealt with, I haven't really kept up to date with the thread lately, but where do we stand then as regards legibility? If a doc sent under s77 may look like an agreement but be illegible? Has a creditor then, in the view of the OFT, acquitted his responsibility?

Bank of Scotland , Pitreavie Business Park, Dunfermline, Fife KY99 4BS.

ROTFLMAO.... lovely

First to guess gets an annual subscription to The Economist

Hello David This has been tried before by Sainsbury's. In your defence did you ask for the agreement and proof that it was posted? You can try and put them to proof of whether they sent the agreement - I did and they completely ignored me. Unfortunately, the CCA need only be sent by standard post, so it can be difficult to disprove. Have they sent a copy of the agreement now? If not you would seem to be in a very strong position. Read this if you haven't: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/108467-basic-introduction-consumer-credit.html?highlight=consumer+credit and you should get all the info you need. Were you harassed by Sainsbury's, btw? Rosie

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Conar686 Please correct me if you know better,but my understanding is that: s77(1) is amended 77A is added s78(4) is amended. The rest of these clauses stand as is. Kind Regards Rosie

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:DBit late to this party, but please accept my congratulations too:D

Josie, Wilson hinged upon the enforceability of an agreement vis a vis the charge for total credit. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the John lewis case actually went down that route. If anyone has a link I would very much like to read it again.

I don't think this really undermines your argument and excuse me for being a bit vague, but wasn't there a case (in Scotland IIRC), something like John Lewis -v- Dr *Someone* in which JL lost the agreement though retained statements etc. Dr S admitted a relationship with JL and the court found in favour of the claimant. Worth checking I'd have thought, if you haven't already.

If I were to guess what happens next.... Sainsbury's bank will not pay the slightest head to any of this. They will almost certainly not bother to answer the letter; or if they do they will not answer any point made. I would guess that starting fairly soon, if it hasn't already, a concerted campaign of telephone harassment will be embarked upon. They really don't give a damn whether the agreement is enforceable or not and will chase you until you take some action. Certainly S's are aware (hmmm) in my case that until I have sight of an enforceable agreement they can go whistle, but it has not stopped the continuing telephone nonsense (, despite having been told to cease by TS). Thankfully caller ID is free to BT customers now, so I can continue to log their calls and just hang up. Record the calls, lets get our respective TS offices talking, badger TS/OFT to bring a prosecution under the Enterprise Act, not just the CCA and AJA. If you need a supporting statement to attest to just how endemic to the organisation their policies are, I will be available. Kind Regards Rosie

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