mmm interesting, thanks for your answers dx100uk, Consumer Dude and buzby. Buzby, how do you recommend I try to give BT their money with minimum hassle and damage to myself? I am very tempted to save the money and donate it to charity though instead of giving it to BT if I can get away with it ...

... oh yeah, the other thing I'm worried about is if I was to move to a new flat and decided I wanted to take out a BT landline for a DHCL broadband subscription with another company ... would they then knock me back and give me hassle once they know my current address... like notify the DCA where I live etc??? Maybe they will say to me, fine, pay us your outstanding fees then we'll give you a landline?? ... as long as they don't put anything on my credit file, I don't care.

hi dx100uk, that's really interesting, thanks. To be honest I did call BT at the middle of last year to pay it all off, and they said that it had been passed on, so I didn't pay them in the end because I didn't want to call a DCA! If BT had been willing to process the payment themselves, like I had insisted, they would have had it by now. ... the numpties. I have the money, but what I'm really worried about is whether I'll get a default or CCJ put on my credit file (can BT or the credit companies do that?... would they be willing to give me a CCJ for £150???) The only thing I'm worried about is keeping my experian credit file at 'Fair' ... I don't want any nasty surprises from them in the future if I continue ignoring ...

I have an unpaid BT bill from last year, that started off at around £80 then finished off at around £150 after it went unpaid for various months and then went to a collection agency that threatened me with visits etc. From the middle of last year until now I have been suffering from depression and financial difficulties, and pretty much through in the towel with keeping tabs of my finances and it just all ran over my head ... many envelopes unopened etc. But not any more, I'm ready to get absolutely everything sorted and pay off all my unpaid debts. I have managed to bring myself to view my credit report, and to my amazement BT haven't added any defaults to it, and neither has the water company who I owe 400 to and is threatening me with court and neither has an internet domain registrar. To my amazement my credit rating is fair, after I had two defaults in 2004 with a student overdraft and credit card with BOS (satisfied immediately) that were on the file. So... I would like to call the debt collection agency that BT hired (Nelson Guest & Partners Solicitors and Wescott) and tell them I'll make a card payment. They seem to have forgotten about me though, and haven't sent me any letters all year. What I am worried about, is if I call them to confirm my address etc and offer to make the payment, they will register a default on my credit file before I pay it? ... which will then mark it as satisfied? That would be a disaster for me as I had to wait for 6 years that have just cleared for my credit rating to get rid of the defaults from 2004. So if anyone has any advice on this matter, I would very much appreciate it. Many thanks, Ray

I've first sent of my S.A.R a year and a half ago, I've still not managed to get my money because when I didn't know too much what was going on after the L.B.A i was scared by this site into ordering Patricia Pearls book, which was then delayed etc etc... because I stupidly thought I'd need to prepare my self for a small chance that it would end up in court. Anyway, I was claiming back six years, I can't file at court yet because I haven't got the funds now, but from the end of December 6 years ago I started to get charged so I'm starting to loose the amount I've been claiming. Can I still claim these after the test case? Also I'm suffering from hardship and (i don't qualify for benefits because my partner as a low pay job that disqualifies me before anyone suggests that). What action should I take so I can claim all my charges that as of now are starting to extend more then 6 years back? Also I didn't include the statutory interested amount in my prelim or LBA, can I include that in another LBA or whatever?

Hi, no I've not filed at court because I don't have the funds available for the court fees just now, I've only sent an LBA. I can't get help towards the fees because my partner is employed, albeit a crappy low pay job. This disqualifies me from benefits and court fees help etc. That's as far as I can take it just now and I was hoping to just wait until January, fingers crossed the OFT case will be successful and the bank can pay me back the full amount. Hope that helps?

Hi, thanks for the replies, Answering your question Milktrayman: The name of the Debt Collection Agency that it was sent on to is Roxburghe Debt Collectors. The name of the lawyers firm that they sent the debt on to that have sent me an LBA and now a final warning is: Graham White LL.B Solicitor. I'm currently setting up a Personal Budge Sheet etc, and some covering letters, I've sent them before but this time I'll be sending a copy to the FSA also for continued harassment, do you think I'll get an invitation through the post to appear at court in the next few days anyway? My letters won't arrive in time. Do you think they are just threats and wind ups to get me to pay? Thanks again.

Hi, Initially I'd started a claim on this Nationwide account that was currently open, by asking them to pay me back £250 of charges that they'd unlawfully taken off my wages etc. I sent the Prelim + LBA using the templates on this site and obviously sent recorded etc. Later on my lost my job due to health reasons and the wages stopped, I didn't have any money left in the account and since it was a standard savings account and not a debit account I wasn't too concerned about letting direct debits bounce etc. Anyway, this account that couldn't go underneath zero magically went to minus 600 after a few months lol, ALL of it out of bounced Direct Debits. The bank responded to my LBA with the usual crap about waiting for the OFT test case etc. So I thought I'd wait as well. Anyway, half a rain forrest of paper through dodgy threat letters and threats later it was passed on to a DCA, i ignored all their threats etc because I'm too busy looking for a job, now the DCA has got some sort of lawyer and have sent me an LBA. I don't qualify for benefits since my partner works, it's a crappy sort of job she's got but a job is a job, just incase anyone tells me to go on benefits and send a personal budget sheet from the Citz Advice. Now what? Is this really happening? Are they really going to try and be so sleazy to CCJ me about an account in dispute whilst I'm unemployed, for an account made of 100% UNLAWFUL CHARGES!!!??? Any advice much appreciated, Oh, PS, I've been sent a 'Final Warning' now as it's been about 10 days since the LBA

No I hadn't, thanks Jan I've just sent off a little Email regarding my little case here.

Hi Jan, thanks for the info, The reason I want to apply for hardship at the banks is that I don't think I'll be able to lift my stay (if I went as far as putting the case to court) as I choose not to receive benefits even though I'm entitled to them, I detailed the reason above. After some phone calls to the Ombudsmen they said they would agree to help me after I'd shown hardship to the banks and they hadn't reacted apropiatly after two weeks. Only after I'd done that but specified the hardship should have nothing to do with the bank charges because of the test case claim. Also thanks for the links with draft hardship templates to write for the bank, that's EXACTLY what I've been looking for but this board has grown so big now that I find it hard pin pointing information quickly. Cheers and congrats on the case, I'll be reading those links etc, Ray

First of all, thanks for answering! I don't think there's much point going down the hardship route at the courts because even if I didn't have to pay the court fees, if I applied for the stay to be waived through hardship it would get knocked back anyway, as have ALL hardship cases at the considerate and humane Bristol County Court.

anyone?

Thanks, that's a good idea, I've created a separate thread for this problem but we're already in the General forum believe, cheers

I'm in the situation that I've had an offer of £410 out of £1050 after sending my LBA. I’ve tried to reject it with a rejection letter and the Bank of Scotland/Halifax said that they can’t negotiate any more cases for the meantime until the OFT ruling. But I still had another two months to accept their pathetic offer if I wished. I live in Bristol at and it looks like I'm going to have to accept it as I was just talking the courts today and they haven’t had any requests to remove the stays because of hardship accepted, that's NONE at all and various people have requested for them to be removed. Sounds like a lovely judge or whoever makes the decisions there! As well as them putting ALL the cases on ‘Stay’ I have found out that they have knocked back all hardship requests so far! My situation is that I've lost the good job through mental illness, I can't claim benefits of any type because my wife is a 'no recourse to public funds' stamp on her 'spouse visa' since as we just got married last year and she's from abroad and we obviously want to carry on living with each other in this country for the rest of our life. Plus she has a standard £6.50p/h type job and I live with her so I wouldn't be able to claim anyway even if she was British. I have rent arrears, council tax arrears, other bills arrears etc, court threats and have recently received another default. So look like I'm going to have to accept the offer? OR would I be able to carry on negotiating the 'hardship situation' thing if I send the bank a rejection letter, detailing my situation with photocopies of my bills with lots of re letters and threats etc? I'm already late with last months rent and I have another one on the 25th and I may be forced to accept the £410 offer. Is there a 'chance' that even if I sign for it, accepting 'full and final offer' that I may be able to get the remainder early next year should the OFT Court Case test case thing rule that the banks have to pay out the remainder even if they have signed for it? Obviously there's some people that are going to say to me now, "we don't know as we can't predict the future etc etc, BUT what I want to know is there a CHANCE and is it one of the things consumer groups are pushing for? As well as pay outs of bank charge history to be made instantly with interest added on top, without having to write to request for it etc etc. Are there other people out there at are hopeful that this may happen? That those people that have been forced to sign to accept offers due to hardship may have their remainder bank charges paid to them sometime next year? Any help advice much appreciated, Cheers, Ray

First Question: Is it possible to use the FSA hardship waiver on stay argument also at negotiation stages, i.e: when you're still negotiating with the bank and wanting to reject an offer so you can get your full amount? I'm in the situation that I've had an offer of £410 out of £1050 after sending my LBA. I’ve tried to reject it with a rejection letter and the Bank of Scotland/Halifax replied saying that they can’t negotiate any more cases for the meantime until the OFT ruling. But I still had another two months to accept their pathetic offer if I wished. I live in Bristol at and it looks like I'm going to have to accept it as I was just talking the courts today and they haven’t had any requests to remove the stays because of hardship accepted, that's NONE at all and various people have requested for them to be removed. Sounds like a lovely judge or whoever makes the decisions there! As well as them putting ALL the cases on ‘Stay’ I have found out that they have knocked back all hardship requests so far! I'm so skint just now that I can't even afford court fees and have no way of them getting paid for me as I'm not on benefits. So I want to carry on negotiating with the bank if possible and sending them threats that I will claim at court immediately if they don't reply satisfactorily etc. My situation is that I've lost the good job through mental illness, I can't claim benefits of any type because my wife is a 'no recourse to public funds' stamp on her 'spouse visa' since as we just got married last year and she's from abroad and we obviously want to carry on living with each other in this country for the rest of our lives, despite my current mental illness we still keep each other going, and help each other a great deal etc. As soon as you claim any type of benefits you put you chance of long term residency of your spouse in jeopardy because you have to be able to prove that you can support each other financially. I normally can just recently suffered some breakdowns due to various issues. Plus she has a standard £6.50p/h type job and I live with her so I wouldn't be able to claim anyway even if she was British aswell. I have rent arrears, council tax arrears, other bills arrears etc, court threats and have recently received another default. So look like I'm going to have to accept the offer? OR would I be able to carry on negotiating the 'hardship situation' thing if I send the bank a rejection letter, detailing my situation with photocopies of my bills with lots of re letters and threats etc? I'm already late with last months rent and I have another one on the 25th and I may be forced to accept the £410 offer. Second Question: Is there a 'chance' that even if I sign for it, accepting 'full and final offer' that I may be able to get the remainder early next year should the OFT Test Court Case thing rule that the banks have to pay out the remainder even if they have signed for it? Obviously there's some people that are going to say to me now, "we don't know as we can't predict the future etc etc, BUT what I want to know is there a CHANCE and is it one of the things consumer groups are pushing for? As well as pay outs of bank charge history to be made instantly with interest added on top, without having to write to request for it etc etc. Are there other people out there at are hopeful that this may happen? That those people that have been forced to sign to accept offers due to hardship may have their remainder bank charges paid to them sometime next year? Any help/advice much appreciated, Cheers, Ray

I'm in the situation that I've had an offer of £410 out of £1050 after sending my LBA. I’ve tried to reject it with a rejection letter and the Bank of Scotland/Halifax said that they can’t negotiate any more cases for the meantime until the OFT ruling. But I still had another two months to accept their pathetic offer if I wished. I live in Bristol at and it looks like I'm going to have to accept it as I was just talking the courts today and they haven’t had any requests to remove the stays because of hardship accepted, that's NONE at all and various people have requested for them to be removed. Sounds like a lovely judge or whoever makes the decisions there! As well as them putting ALL the cases on ‘Stay’ I have found out that they have knocked back all hardship requests so far! My situation is that I've lost the good job through mental illness, I can't claim benefits of any type because my wife is a 'no recourse to public funds' stamp on her 'spouse visa' since as we just got married last year and she's from abroad and we obviously want to carry on living with each other in this country for the rest of our life. Plus she has a standard £6.50p/h type job and I live with her so I wouldn't be able to claim anyway even if she was British. I have rent arrears, council tax arrears, other bills arrears etc, court threats and have recently received another default. So look like I'm going to have to accept the offer? OR would I be able to carry on negotiating the 'hardship situation' thing if I send the bank a rejection letter, detailing my situation with photocopies of my bills with lots of re letters and threats etc? I'm already late with last months rent and I have another one on the 25th and I may be forced to accept the £410 offer. Is there a 'chance' that even if I sign for it, accepting 'full and final offer' that I may be able to get the remainder early next year should the OFT Court Case test case thing rule that the banks have to pay out the remainder even if they have signed for it? Obviously there's some people that are going to say to me now, "we don't know as we can't predict the future etc etc, BUT what I want to know is there a CHANCE and is it one of the things consumer groups are pushing for? As well as pay outs of bank charge history to be made instantly with interest added on top, without having to write to request for it etc etc. Are there other people out there at are hopeful that this may happen? That those people that have been forced to sign to accept offers due to hardship may have their remainder bank charges paid to them sometime next year? Any help/advice much appreciated, Cheers, Ray

OK I have just called the bank asking if they have received my LBA regarding my Student Current Account. It turns out that they did receive it on the last few days of March but haven’t replied to it because they considered my 'complaint' (complaint meaning my Prelim letter) that they received on the 14th of September ‘closed.’ (!) This is because apparently they sent me out an offer of around £400 (full amount is around £1050). All I received from them regarding my prelim letter are two standard fob off / recognition letters basically saying: 16th of September Dear Mr XXXX Thank you for your letter that was received on the 14th of September 2006. “I am sorry to learn that you are unhappy with charges with you account. We’re keen to deal with your concerns as quickly as possible. A customer Relations Manager will investigate the points you have raised and you will receive a reply shortly, but certainly no later than 4 weeks. You will find enclosed a copy of our leaflet, which tells you how we will handle your complaint. Your concerns will be dealt with as quickly as possible, but to hep us deal more efficiently with your enquiry, please quote XXXXX when writing or telephone the number at the top of this letter. Yours sincerely, Mark Coldwell Customer Relations Officer Then I got another letter dated 11th of October (this date is important later on to understand this post) Dear Mr XXXX Further to our letter of the 16 of September 2006. I’m sorry that you have not yet had a full response to your concerns. We’re still investigating your complaint, and you will receive a response from us as soon as possible, but certainly no later than the 8th of November 2006. Our Complaints leaflet, which we sent to you previously, explains how we will handle your complaint. Yours sincerely Ruth Stringer Redress Assessor Core Business Customer Relations. Following this letter there was a large gap before sending my LBA I fell ill for a while and was waiting for aaages for Patricia Pearls Small Claim book to arrive, just so I could be fully prepaired if per chance the bank decided to put in a proper deffence, understand the process etc. Therefore I only got round to sending my LBA off to them at the end of March. I received no recognition for it, but I waited before filing for court (still haven’t done) because I was just sending a prelim for the Visa account at the same time and wanted to wait until I’d ran out the LBA time limit for the other account as well so I could tie the two accounts with the same claim. The Visa now ‘seems’ to have been sorted and I’m not concerned about that just now, so I’m back to the original Student Current Account for £1040 regarding the LBA mentioned above. Since I had received no recognition letter, I checked with the Special Delivery receipt and it was definitely signed for, I’ve obviously kept the receipt. I called the bank to find out why they have not sent out an offer or a recognition letter. I was quite shocked by their answer: They HAVE received the LBA giving a date coinciding with the special delivery date, but they didn’t send me out anything because my complaint was marked as ‘closed’! Apparently they closed my complaint on the 18th of October because I had been “sent an offer” apparently for around £400. Now, because I didn’t reply to this offer (that I never received) the lady said "following the standard time of FOUR WEEKS RESPONSE TIME they closed my complaint on the 18th of October." Now, I didn’t receive ANY offers at all from them, how can they say the did when you can look at the dates from the letters above which clearly state that they had bought themselves more time to give me a response. NO WONDER I HAVN’T RECEIVED A LETTER. I told them that I hadn’t received anything and they said they would look into it and maybe send me something out again, but I hadn’t noticed what I’ve just explained just now about the dates of the letters that they DID send containing discrepancies with the letter that they APPARENTLY sent and I didn’t receive. There are only 7 days, not four weeks, between the 11th of October and the 18th of October, see what I’m saying? Now what should I do? Is a wise move to resend the LBA with an extra paragraph saying some eloquent and clever wording which I’m not very good at basically saying that I never closed my complaint and never received your offer so I am asking you once again to give me all my money back or I will file for court in _ _ days time. Or should I go straight ahead with filling an N1 or Moneyclaim. My fear with that is: I think there is a condition for filing a case that you haven’t rushed into it, that you have been willing to negotiate things before hand before jumping into court. I don’t want the bank waving me that letter that they apparently sent waiving me their apparent letter saying, well be gave you a full response with this letter offering you over a third of your money. Maybe? I don’t know. So what’s next? What shall I do? Another LBA or Court Claim? If it’s another LBA anyone got any idea of some snazzy wording to add to the front, concerning my account being closed or whatever, if that’s necessary? Any help much appreciated, Cheers, Ray

LOL, no worries, thanks again for your help guys.

To avoid confusion: Parkvale, edited his post. Now it says "14 days is a reasonable period. Good luck". Before it said that "you could try with 10 days, banks are so much snowed under with claims that it shouldn't make a difference, good luck", or something very simular. The reason I am mentioning this is for just incase anyone is confused with my answer, asking someone to double confirm but for the other way. That's why I answered with what I did or I wouldn't have asked again.

Hi, thanks for the answers, and to those that have understood I was interested in having a discussion / kindly receiving help and not some fired off tired clichés. Answering a question: the reason I’d like the money back slightly quicker is that I have a big payment to make in about 5 weeks and I’m just trying to plan. The reason I’m confused is: as well as a few geezers down the pub telling me that they’ve won successfully using 10 days as the time limit, I vaguely remember Martin from MSE saying that most people use 14 days, but it’s the time that you see reasonable and some people use 10 days. I’ve just re checked though and it says 14 days, as with the BBC’s guidelines. What I was actually thinking of doing is using 10 days after the prelim and 14 days after the LBA as that’s when the real negotiating and offers normally takes place but only if it didn’t greatly jeopardize my chances. Now, I completely appreciate and have a lot of respect for the huge time and effort the site’s moderators, helpers and contributors put in and I’m quite sure that everything that is done is there in the best interest of getting peoples money back. The last thing I want is to damage any important moderators egos. It was interesting to see the real wording that livleylad has kindly provided. I think it says in various parts of this site that this is purely advice and opinions that are given anyway (to cover their backs just in case) and it’s always a good idea to double check things, I don’t think I’m wrong in doing so. I’m going to try now avoiding plugging or linking to other charges claiming websites as there are various, the CAG in my opinion is by far the best and most complete. There is one particular well known one north of the border that has successfully claimed back £500 000 with the Scots and with one claim for £13 000. Same stories all round obviously, none defended properly in court. I’ve just re-checked their website today and they are still using 7 days as the limit. This could possibly be of course because of the slight differences between the Scottish small claims guidelines and England’s, just as with that 5 year / 6 year business, but I’m not too sussed up on the finer parts of Scottish law. I’ve just re checked another penalty charge website that used 10 days before and now has 14… If someone was to make a claim against me, yes, in all honesty I’d obviously prefer as long as possible to avoid any errors but I’d settle it as soon as possible anyway without sending out a dodgy fob off letter. Banks though, aren’t particularly my friends and I couldn’t give a toss what they think is a reasonable time. ALL I’m concerned about is what a judge would think that follows the law, say if per-chance the banks decided to properly defend all of a sudden. The way I see it, for a large corporation like themselves who made £4.5 billion just last year off unlawful charges, 10 days should be plenty of time to send me a fob off after a prelim even if they have a back log of 5 days. If they can’t, it’s their fine mess of their making and they could always contribute to the economy more positively by employing more back office staff to do so. I'm going to use 14 days for both letters now anyway, thanks for the help.

Thanks Parkvale, anyone else want to just quickly double confirm?

Can I change the prelim template slightly by putting 10 days instead of 14? This is the second bank I'm going to persue and I'd like things speeded up a bit this time round as I'd like the money back quicker. I'm pretty sure that you can but correct me if I'm wrong, this time limit isn't written in stone and it's supposed to be the time that you think it should take for a company to deal with the query and get back to you (I've read.) I just want to double check though. Cheers, Ray

I've alleady thanked you Hagenuk in private but thanks again, that's good advice. Have a look at the rejection letter that I sent after they made an offer of £215, this was from Card Services, Pitreavie Business Park,Dunfermline, KY99 4BS, a department that deals with credit cards for HBoS and has nothing to do with current accounts so what they offered was half of my Visa Credit Account charges, fair enough. I needed to inform them that I was doing a joint claim though, I'd sent the LBA for the current account to the central Halifax address in Leeds so I let them know about it in this rejection letter that I sent around the 15th, what do you think about it? Have I done a good job? Just to update everyone I'm about to take the advice of hagenuk and sign for the full ammount of credit card charges £525 that I've explained and typed out the non binding conditions above. I made this rejection letter out of a mixture of the seven provided in the templates of this forum http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejecting-offers.html that I've adapted to my needs: HBOS Card Services Pitreavie Business Park Dunfermline, KY99 4BS 12th May 2007 RESPONSE TO SETTLEMENT OFFER Dear XXXXXX Thank you for your letter dated 16/04/2007 I respectfully decline your offer of Full and Final settlement and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on my Halifax Bank of Scotland accounts, totaling £1564.50, or as a good will gesture, see my offer in the last paragraph. Attached to this letter I have included once more the total of charges that I attached with the Letter Before Action for the following account that I sent on the 26th of March 2007. ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXX SORT CODE: XXXXXXXX ROLLNUMBER: XXXXXXXX I have also attached once again a total of charges for the following account number that I had attached to the Letter Before Action sent on the 21st of April 2007. ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXXX Which later changed to ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXXX I will accept the sum offered only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder, with a County Court claim if necessary. My Letter Before Action sent on the 21st of April indicates that you had until the 4th of May 2007 to respond before I would commence legal action. The offer you sent dated 16/04/2007 that I am rejecting was sent to my old address and it had to be forwarded on. This was despite you having my new address included at the top of my recent letters, on envelopes for those letters, the fact that I had the address verified in a Halifax branch and also please note that the above address is the one that you have used before without a problem to communicate my private business with me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable. Because of your letter being delayed due to an error by yourselves and as a good will gesture I am willing to suspend proceeding through a County Court claim for a further five days and will give you the chance to not pay the interest on my charges and my court fees once it goes to court as I am willing to accept only 95% of my charges totaling £1564.50. This would mean you could only pay £1486.27 if you write back to me in the next five days offering for this amount and not a penny less to be paid back to me with a similar form requesting a signature. If you decline or I don’t hear from you I will not delay one more day in commencing legal action. Because the amount I was defaulted for on my HBOS Visa account was less than the total of charges applied I also request that my ‘Default Satisfactory’ notice is removed from my credit file for that particular account if we were to reach such an agreement. I trust this clarifies my position. Yours faithfully, XXXXXXX What do you think? Shall I still send the LBA again after advising them about it here and having included the schedule of charges again with this rejection letter? Cheers, Ray

Also, in the "Full and Final Settlement" it is exacltly as I typed out in blue in the earlier post. There are no dodgy terms and conditions, they just want me to sign that "I accept the offer of £525 from Halifax/Bank of Scotland in full and final settlement of my complaint regarding Credit Card Charges on my Halifax / Bank of Scotland Credit Card accounts" which I'm tottally happy about because It says CREDIT CARD accounts, it doesn't say anything about CURRENT ACCOUNTS which is my other account, so it shouldn't effect me going ahead with filing my claim. See what I mean? I could really do with taking the cash right now so I wouldn't mind signing it.

Thanks seaside lady, let me just say I havn't yet filed my claim yet, I'm about to but I've not handed in my N1 forms. Also I just called the bank to find out what they meant by my complaint being "resolved" and they opened the file for that account and it's showing that they have received NEITHER the prelim or the LBA and that there are no notes on my account. This is strange because the same lady that told me about the "resolved" note on my file had told me that they had received the Prelim. Also I received two recognitions for it last year basicly saying that they would take eons to reply and someone would get back to me in the next four months or something, obviously I've kept those letters and the receipts for the Special Delivaries ofcourse... Is it really necessary to send the prelim again because I have all the proof that they received my letters in special delivary receipts and recognition letters for the Prelim if not the LBA.