As a further comment to my own message, even though CAG seems to think the ombudsman is largely a waste of time. The small claims court would expect you to try and resolve things with the bank and I think they would expect you to try the ombudsman. If it does not work out with the ombudsman, you can still go to court to try and resolve the matter. I have the final letter from my bank Nat West are saying based on the transactions the "perpetrator gained access to my pin number" which seems to be saying I gave my pin number and bank card to someone waited while they emptied my bank account and then reported it. I think they are accusing me of stealing my own money without actually saying as much. I don't see how I gain from this as I am out £5,000 that went missing from my account. The banks will not admit that thief's are stealing pin numbers from ATM's. On the internet it is shown devices can be put on ATM's to retain cards and record keystrokes using video or audio. THe bank is using chip and pin to say if the pin number goes missing and someone gets the pin number, we have not taken reasonable care with the pin number. On the one hand the code says I'm am not liable in the event of a fraud, but as our system is "perfect" anyone having their pin number used in a fraud must have colluded in the fraud, which makes them totally liable. This is not right or good enough. The bank appears to be saying its fine if you want to steal your own money from your account, we know you did it, but won't go as far as saying that in writing or on the phone. I hope the ombudsman will sort things out, so I don't have to go to court. Harry ps. sorry for long post, the banks make me so ...

Hi Keith, You should report to the police and either go to small claims court or try the financial ombudsman. Once the bank has given you a final response you can go to the ombudsman. website is: Financial Ombudsman Service or call them on 0845-0801800. If you call them they will send you some forms to fill in. My bank Nat West have said that I did not take reasonable care over protecting my pin number, the basis for this claim seems to be that the fraudster's have the pin number. It seems somehow surprising that someone who steals your bank card would not also try and steal your pin number. Also they didn't like the transaction that the criminals made. I hope your successful in getting your money back. Harry ps. I found my own thread when I was looking for bank fraud on the internet

No as I said I didn't have the card, the card was taken by bank atm. The bank has not accused me of being involved in the fraud, I asked them that directly. I'm still waiting to hear about appeal. Harry

The banking code says I am only liable for £50 if someone uses the card before I tell them it has been lost or stolen. Unless the bank can show that I have acted fraudulently or without reasonable care. The law is there to protect the consumer. In my opinion previous to this I would have said a card retained by a bank atm is not lost or stolen, I know where it is the bank has it. In the past i have never had any problems with this. It is a new problem where a device can be fitted over a bank atm to fake this and I don't think the banks are doing enough to warn people of these problems. My impression is it is seen as some sort of running cost of chip and pin atm's. I still don't understand how the machine said retained by bank. Also the atm asked me to type in my pin number. I don't understand the mechanics involved in doing this. The bank said they have a record of the card being inserted into the machine, but it was not retained it was returned. I did ask if it was possible to program the machine to retain the cards and for bank staff take the cards and get the pin number, the bank said this would not be possible. So I can only assume it was some sort of modification made to the atm and surely they would have to have a way of getting the pin numbers or just stealing the cards would be useless. Another thing I don't understand is how the bank can be sure it was the original card in use and not a clone? Surely if they have a way of detecting that a card is a clone, they should retain the card in the atm or ask the shop to retain card. To be used in a shop a card would have to look genuine. The thing is it was a fraud they stole the card and the pin number. It does not make it not a fraud if they have the original card and not a clone. If the card had been given out by the atm to a passing stranger, they would not have the pin number. The police where given a full bank statement of all the transactions. Since this happened I have had bank fraud on my other card with £150 of transactions to an orange pay-as-u-go phone. Harry

As an update I have appealed with Nat West and they are still looking into it. It happened at about 12:30 am there was no one else near the ATM so it must have been some sort of camera or key reading device. Also it is likely that there may have been CCTV footage as the bank branch is near a main road crossing. While it did take me a week to reporting the card taken by the atm, I did report the fraud as soon as I knew there was a fraud, which is when I got a balance from the bank. The bank have not accused me of being involved directly in taking the money. I'm sorry but most people trust a card retained by a bank's atm is safe. A lot of people will see this as a banking error and expect that the bank will send out a new card. If the card had been returned to me and a clone made, it is unlikely I would have noticed anything until I received the next bank statement. I don't think the banks are doing enough to warn people how vulnerable bank branch atm's are. I found this on a bbc website BBC NEWS | Business | Q&A: Preventing card fraud here is an extract: All sounds terrifying! What happens if I do fall victim to credit or debit card fraud? The law states that cardholders are not liable for fraudulent transactions as long as the original card is still in their possession. Any bank or business turning down a refund request is on very shaky legal ground. The problems arise when a card is stolen or lost and is then used fraudulently. Under these circumstances according to the terms of the Consumer Credit Act and the Banking Code you are liable for damages up to a maximum of £50. However, an Apacs spokesperson said that banks often waive the £50. This is from the banking code http://www.bankingcode.org.uk/pdfdocs/PERSONAL_CODE_2008.PDF Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently or without reasonable care, your liability for your card being misused will be limited as follows. • If someone else uses your card, before you tell us it has been lost or stolen or that someone else knows your PIN, the most you will have to pay is £50. This seems to say that my liability for fraud is £50, unless I didn't use reasonably care. As Nat west follows the banking code, the only thing they may argue is that I didn't use reasonable care and I would argue that I did. Harry

Hi, I seem to be totally screwed and I need some help. I opened a Nat West business Account and transferred £5,000 into it. That was all fine then I got my atm card and used it to check the balance and I got a message saying the card was retained by my bank. This seemed annoying but I thought the card was secure as it was retained by a Barclays ATM. It took me a week before I asked for a new card. I know I should have been onto them sooner, but I didn't think there was any hassle as the card was in a safe place, a bank. When I asked for my balance I got a shock, instead of £5,000 I had £5. I got a statement and £500 a day had been taken out in cash using the card and my pin number. I don't understand how this could happen. How did they get my pin number? How did they get card? Was it cloned? I reported it as fraud to the bank and the police. The bank said that after they investigated it I should get a full refund as it was fraud. OK that's a relief. So 2 weeks later I get a letter from the bank saying as the crooks had used my real card and not a clone and had my pin number right on the first try there would be no refund at all. It seems to me they are saying that I must have handed the card to the crooks and given them the pin number. I have no idea how the crooks got my real card or my pin number. Can someone from the bank with the atm steal my card? and if they did how would they know the pin number? THe money was meant to be for a low budget film (now its a £5 budget) does anyone know if the bank refuses to pay refund can I take them to small claims court? All they have suggested is that I change my pin number and they have sent me a leaflet on ID theft. £5,000 is a lot of money to me and I am shocked that the bank seem to be implying that I have arranged to rob myself. If I go to small claim what is my case? Or are the bank in the right and I am totally screwed... please help if you know anything about this. I will go and speak to a solicitor. Sorry if this is posted in the wrong group , but I can not find an atm fraud group. Henry

I have a court date in June for my claim and I haven't heard any more on counter claim since i sent in defence asking for it to be dropped as I the money was already being disputed in my claim. Harry

No they definatly have issued counter claim, it arrived this morning from Northampton county court. So I do need to send something back to the court or Barclays will win that case by my defaulting. I've decided to send in the defense form and ask that they set aside claim as I have prior claim with other court that can deal with the claim. Harry

I have a claim against Barclays for £1,400 plus interest, it's in another thread Harry vs Barclays. As I had a £936 overdraft Barclays are now counter claiming for the overdraft. I needed some advice do I defend it and quote the court number from the other case which was filed before Barclays case. Should I send back the acknowledgement first or just fill in the defense from. My defense would be as the charges are more than the overdraft I don't owe them the overdraft. Barclays seem to think that I owe them the overdraft until their is a ruling on the charges, even if the end up settling before it goes to trial. I would have thought they shouldn't be able to sue me for the overdraft if it is already in dispute in another case. Harry

just an update... Barclays are defending they have 28 days to put in defense. No court date yet. Harry

Great thread, good luck in court with case. Assuming they don't phone up and try and settle at the weekend, it seems they only have 2 days before the trial. I've put in my N1 for £1,400 plus interest, so waiting to see if they defend and what the date is. Sounds like they like to wait to the very last minute too settle. Harry

Well I basically gave them the court budle which has the schedule in it and they said I didn't need to give it to them at this stage but would take it anyway. I filled in the N1 two weeks ago and put on the form papers to follow, which I thought had to be in by 14 days. I think I've mixed up things and put in court bundle too soon. Also as I was unemployed when I put in claim, but am now employed I don't know wether I have to pay £100 for AQ fee if it turns up. Harry

I had a £900 overdraft that they seemed happy about for 2 years then they closed the account, but it could have been to do with my business account which is also in dispute for £300. In the business account I paid in one cheque that bounced for £900 they paid two cheques for £120, charged me two account charges for paying the cheques of £30 each and chanrged me for software that I didn't want for a Windows machine, when I use Macintosh. I told the bank manager that I was happy to have free software but did not want to have the paid extra soft, £18 a month. When I nticed the charges on the account I told them it was a mistake and they said I had signed the contract when I opened the account. The bank manager filled in the form and I signed, so this is still in dispute. I missed going to the Cannes Film festival because of the cheque bouncing. At the time the manager siad the cheque had cleared Anyway I still don't know if they closed account due to my asking for staements or the Business manager closed it. The business account was at a different account to my personal account. I have cash account with Lloyds TSB now... so I've had accounts with Nat West, HSBC and Barclays, the top four, they all seem to do much the same thing. I also have a dispute with Capitol One where they have charged me £800 charges on a £200 limit credit card, as they wouldn't agree to close the account. Harry

Hi, I've been reading the other posts for a while. I've finally filed for my bank charges back from Barclays. They have closed my account as it was overdrawn just after I asked for statements. I moved house in the middle of the process between the frist letter I sent and the LBA and turned down offer of £700. My claim is for £1,400 plus interest. So I have to wait 14 days from the 24th to see if Barclays will put in a defence. I made 3 sets of the court bundle and took it to the court and they said they only needed one and it was up to me if I sent a copy to Barclays. I didn't put in the statments as they are about 50 pages, the women at the court said to wait to see if they defend and the judge would ask for them if they are needed. I haven't called Barclays, should I call and ask if they want a copy of court papers or just send them? Anyone know where I should send them? I didn't have to pay the court fee of £120 pounds as I was unemployed when I put in the claim. just started a new job last week. I also had a barclays business account and I am about to started sueing my mortage companies to get back early redemption fees which comes to £24,000 three lots of £8,000 penalties, I'll put that in a seperate thread. Harry

I left interest off in letter, but sent spreadsheet print out which show interest. Not really sure when you add it in or ask for it. I will include it if it goes to court. If it's not in the letter and they settle before court I guess you don't get interest?