Well the CHAPS payment went through at about 1100h, so I wasn't overdrawn by the end of the day. When I pointed out that I didn't know the money hadn't been paid in till I logged on at 0900h at which time I immediately transferred funds, she said this made no difference. The money hadn't been in at 0700h. So even if I'd been standing at the door waiting to fall through it when they opened, they'd still have charged me! That's why I'm changing banks...

Hi! Last week my employer's new payroll system had a glitch and they couldn't use BACS. Instead they got their bank (RBS) to make payments by CHAPS so that my salary would arrive on Friday, as usual. I'm weekly paid and so my SOs are weekly too. When I checked at 0900h on 25/8 my pay wasn't in my account but my SOs, DDs etc had been taken out, leaving me overdrawn on my overdraft. I hurriedly transferred money across to prevent a charge and got in touch with my agency. RBS told them that, since the money hadn't gone in by the usual method, some Banks and BSs wouldn't automatically clear the payment, but that I should be paid by close of business. Sure enough, when I logged on again at around 1100h the money had been paid. The problem arose when I got a letter on Saturday, dated 25 August, telling me that, as there had been insufficent funds in my account they'd not been able to pay one of my SOs and so they were "afraid they had to charge me". When I queried this, they told me that, although I wasn't overdrawn, there had not been sufficient money when they processed my SOs AT 0700H!! and I'd have to pay £35. Or get my Agency (who did all they could to get me paid on time) to do so. She further told me that, unless the CHAPS payment made a deadline of 1430h on Thursday, clearance could be any time up to close of business on Friday. So unless I got online at 0600h to transfer money, there was no way that I could avoid that charge. If you don't have online banking there's no way AT ALL! I don't know where their call centre is but shall we say that the person I spoke to (Sunil by name) didn't sound as if it was anywhere in the UK. This could account for her sounding - to use the jargon - 'unhelpful'. I recently managed to claw back £230 in bank charges by pointing out that if they couldn't give me a breakdown of the 'charge' into its constituent parts, it wasn't a charge it was a penalty and therefore unlawful etc. She pointed out - in that 'unhelpful' tone - that they'd already refunded my charges once and wouldn't do it again. (Perhaps it was my imagination that she made it sound like a favour...) Any suggestions? I'm not litigious by nature - and it may not be practical for £35. Would the Banking Ombudsman be a good idea? This set up may not be illegal, but it would appear to be on the unfriendly side of ethical! Elizabeth

Well, don't know about nowhere. I'm going to be charged £230 less than I thought I was! And my Abbey account isn't usually in a mess. In fact, these charges are all I've had in years - think since £20 in 2004. And (heretical declaration warning...) I like the Abbey! That said, as I told the (very helpful and pleasant) person from Customer Relationships, accepting the refund of £229.96 didn't mean I wasn't going to find out how the charge is arrived, therefore if it's fair, therefore how much more they need to refund until it is! The Bank of Scotland OTOH...

Before I start, the Abbey staff were – at all times – helpful and sympathetic. I think it helped that I said that I knew they were dealing with the results of decisions from higher up, not making them. Also that I made it clear I knew there were limits to what they could do and say to help. Stage 1 – Went in person to Abbey Branch and spoke to counter staff re the £140 of charges to be taken from my account on 22.07.06. Asked that charges not be taken from account on the grounds that: ·They would cause me to become overdrawn and then I’d get more charges ·They were not lawful on the grounds that they were not a representation of the administrative cost of processing the cheques to which they were related. Counter person (who was actually a financial advisor, but was covering due to shortage of staff!) informed me – very sympathetically - that the total of outstanding charges, including those due out on 22.08.06, was actually £329.96! He didn’t know where they’d come from and asked me to go back to the branch and he’d go through them with me. Asked for breakdown of charges – not to what they related, but an itemised account of the individual £30s. He couldn’t help, but put me through to the telephone service – next step up. Apologised that he couldn’t stay, but asked me to let him know how it went before I left. Stage 2 – Spoke to Customer Advisor (on ordinary telephone banking number). Explained as above. Asked for breakdown of charge. Again was given list of charges. See above! She didn’t have a breakdown either. Stated that I didn’t believe £30 was a fair amount to demand compensation for administration, which meant that it was a penalty, and therefore not legally enforceable and unlawful under common law. Surely a bill for a charge should be broken down, like an invoice? Was offered £55. I asked could it not be more, as a gesture of goodwill? Unfortunately that WAS the goodwill gesture! Said it was a start but would take it further. In that case, I couldn’t have the £55, she’d have to put a “stalemate” on it. I couldn’t have both. Was offered a further £200 extension to overdraft. Would have preferred not to take it, but at least I wasn’t going O/D when they took the charges off the following day! She said she’d pass my number on to Customer Relations – which was the next stage up – and they’d contact me sometime in the next 5-7 days. I said I hoped so, as I wasn’t a litigious person, but I couldn’t let this lie. Had decided at this point to go home and send out letters. However… Stage 3 – at 1940h that evening I got a call from the Customer Relationships people. Conversation much as above, but this time more references to OFT, and the Acts mentioned in the wonderful notes available on this site. The arguments went something like this: 1I was, after all, overdrawn. Me: True. Wasn’t disputing that. Was willing to pay FAIR compensation for administrative costs. Didn’t think £30 was fair. Didn’t think that more than I earn in a week for 5 cheques and 3 DDs – one of £5 was fair! Could I please have a breakdown of the charge, so I could see why it was? 2Well, there was a fee... Me: Yes. I’m not asking for a list of charges, I want to know the constituent part of the charge so that you can show me why it’s fair. 3We don’t actually have a breakdown. Me: Then how do I know it’s fair? If you or rather, (let’s not personalise this because it isn’t you setting the fees. You’re just the poor soul who has to deal with people like me) if your organisation doesn’t know what they’re for, then it’s not a charge. It’s a penalty and therefore not lawful. If it’s a real amount then your data inputters must get an astronomical hourly rate. Can I have a job? 4Well the fee’s a set charge. But what for? A fee implies payment for a service. If that’s towards admin costs, what’s the charge for? We’re back to penalties aren’t we? 5The OFT only covered credit cards. Me: I know. But in Section 5.1.4… And so on. There was more, but this is getting far too long. The upshot was that, after an interim offer of £165 reduction (rejected) I got the charges down to £100 - £50 on 22/07 and £50 on 22/08. This was purely on the understanding that this was NOT the end of the matter. I intended to find out of what the charge consisted and if I was being overcharged and would take action accordingly. I was NOT accepting this amount as full and final settlement. She said she understood that and gave me a telephone number to find out about the charges. Abbey are apparently “looking into the whole question of charges”. Me too! This only just gets me even. But intend using the site to tackle the huge charges that Bank of Scotland have taken from me over the last 5 years. I promise I’ll give a donation then!

Don't know if this is the right place for this or not but... Did you know that any money you Gift Aid is not counted in the calculation they use to work out your income for CTC purposes? I didn't - but I do now! Don't suppose that's in perfect technical language, but hope it's comprehensible.

But what about the following situation: Every Friday, by a Standing Order set up in my main (Abbey) account, £60 is transferred out of that account to another I have with the BoS. That money disappears and is unavailable to me on Friday. It does not appear in my BoS account till Tuesday (sometimes Wednesday). If I go overdrawn in that time it is because the BoS - whilst in possession of my money - has not credited it to my account. BUT THEY STILL HAVE IT! I can understand waiting for a cheque to clear, but why the clearance period on electronic transactions? Furthermore, if the amount is confirmed, why isn't the availability backdated to Friday and the penalty removed? Please don't say it would need Big Brother banking. Surely it would just need a couple of lines in computer software. Oh! But then they'd lose the charges - and have to pay me 3 days per week extra interest on the £3000 they get annually. Surely that wouldn't make a difference though? ;-)

Hi! Got a letter from my bank (Abbey) at weekend saying that I'm going to have £140 of charges taken out of my account on 22 July.:o I've managed to keep within my overdraft for ages, although I fell by the wayside recently. So these are the only charges that have been levied - apart from interest etc - for quite a while. I was wondering if it's possible to stop them from being taken out in the first place. Any advice?

Just a quick hello! I'm new here, obviously! I'm with the Bank of Scotland and, having gone a few quid overdrawn on my overdraft, they've been slamming me for charges for weeks. I only have 2 Standing Orders. I pay in regularly and the money always comes in at the same time every single week. Without fail. What really hacks me off is the fact that it leaves my other account on Friday and doesn't get 'cleared' until the following Tuesday. So I'm being charged even though they have must my money somewhere (because i sure don't!) It's not much, but my charges now exceed the total SOs. Hate 'making a fuss', but my back's up now. Think I stand a chance? Elizabeth