hi all just a quick update , too knackered to go into much detail head and heart went PoP . ended up back in the dark woods of the mind for a fair while . the council gave us a deadline to decide . move to the flat or be evicted etc . this expired yesterday . I said yes , through lack of time and knowledge and duty to keep my family safe. I didn't sleep a wink last night and started today with more defensive vigour . I believe that our case is muddied waters. my "new" mission is to clear those waters to allow our truth to be seen . The council , as you know , have not answered any of our questions . only stated current legislation at us. even when asked by our solicitor about ANY of our points , they ignore. my next action over this weekend is to go through all of the data files again and create a nice short summary of facts dates and events. I believe that this will create a clearly stronger case in our favour and expose us less to the 50/50 odds of a judges discretional bias . I intend to run this by the solicitor again on Monday (we already said goodbye ..time to say hello again so soon! ) and if she agrees that the clarity of the case is clearer and improves our chances then ,, the fight in the court is on! I think ?! maybe ... I shall put up a summary for here when I have done it to try to help clear any confusing points that may have come up. x I have found a tag thing here is mine.... "The right to housing is not about a roof anywhere, at any cost, without any social ties. It is not about reshuffling people according to a snapshot of the number of bedrooms at a given night. It is about enabling environments for people to maintain their family and community bonds, their local schools, work places and health services allowing them to exercise all other rights, like education, work, food or health." remarks by UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing, Rachel Rolnik x

Aaaaaargh ! why is this so hard to get correct information . The pressure is intense and i am feeling incredibly explosive. this is democracy is it. A confusing faffle of this means that , that means this . we will only answer questions with legal ultimatums! (the council that is) i am not moaning about the Group here . Desperate daniellas advise of a specific human rights lawyer was spot on ! and rds advice has made me look at another angle stu ..thankyou for responding,.. the "normal" street solicitors i approached found no case .. as did shelter .. they just say do as the council tell you and then closed our case. funny how they refuse to look at our 11 year history that does influence our case . The human rights solicitor is representing us and we can fight for a judicial review based on legitimate expectation .. odds on the case are 50/50 . do we dont we ????!! they await our decision.. i fully understand the threat of homelessness and it is breaking me apart. through trying to be reasonable .. we viewed the flat they are offering on tuesday and now have 5 days to make a decision. i did ask before the visit and at the time about the offered tenancies.. it is introductory for a year then it is a 5 year flexible tenancy. i requested that it be the old lifetime tenancys and told that as it is a new tenancy they cannot do this. i asked "what happens in 5 years time then when our daughter is not classed as a dependant no more. you will just relinquish your duty to house us anyway in 5 years? my wife and i will be on the street as we have no dependants (in their eyes). The reply was woooly ! no no that will not happen . i countered with why not .. it is what you are using against us now in our current home , we have a little box room that is causing you to move us. what is the difference between your actions now and your probable actions in 5 years time ? "umm umm err i dont know about that , i am sure it will not happen " yes of course, you are the masters of truth huh so the carrot of "housing security" is not really a carrot any more, it looks like one and is touted as one, alas it is just a plastic imitation filled with air. i did call Shelter again yesterday and asked " is there any remit for us to be offered a lifetime tenancy?" answer .. no ,it is lawful for them to only offer a flexible. they had no answers as to what happens in 5 years either. the second question i asked was " what happens , if we go for the court route and lose. will my family and i be dragged out onto the street by our ankles? again the answer was a bit wooly but lent towards the social services getting involved (as the council have a duty to report us to them) , so i guess they will nicely and perfectly legally try to drag my daughter away first ! before they send in the court bailiffs to drag us out the cause and effect of the application of democracy in this way will cause me to lose my own democratic rationale. although i am very close to that anyways sorry if my stance offends those who side with the current political ideology Keep reading the tabloid papers and listening to the ranting twits in parliament.. keep looking down on people, dont look up and protest against those that rule us. it is easier to attack those that you perceive have no power huh . x I have found a tag thing here is mine.... "The right to housing is not about a roof anywhere, at any cost, without any social ties. It is not about reshuffling people according to a snapshot of the number of bedrooms at a given night. It is about enabling environments for people to maintain their family and community bonds, their local schools, work places and health services allowing them to exercise all other rights, like education, work, food or health." remarks by UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing, Rachel Rolnik x

hi hope still bubbling on ... I managed to find out the meaning of "reasonable" in context to above quote through reading this.. Supplementary Guidance on the homelessness changes in the Localism Act 2011 and on the Homelessness (Suitability of Accommodation) (England) Order 2012 "The previous requirement (in section 193(7F)) that authorities must be satisfied that it is reasonable for the applicant to accept the offer has been amended so that no factors, other than contractual or other obligations in respect of existing accommodation, are to be taken into account in determining whether it is reasonable to accept the offer." the need for an explanation of "reasonable" is dealt with here ,by saying that only contractual/other obligations are in force so no route for us there. Does anybody know if the localism act and its amendments, supersede/annul the other acts ? ie housing act 1996 etc I ask this because in essence we are being dealt with as though we have just become tenants. with No history. we have nearly 11 years of history here Thankyou x

hi . any one have any ideas on the "reasonable" meaning in context to the above quote please obviously I have my own idea of what it means but I equally have done enough reading to know, that I know, absolutely nothing. All hope is pretty much gone anyways , just clutching at straws now .. x

depends on your ideological viewpoint I guess King , . I or my family did not cause this apparent housing shortage. we did not create these "conditions of austerity" nor did we invent the "moral obligations of the socially housed class" I personally feel great moral obligation towards many human factors including the issue of housing millions but I also have a duty to protect my own family too. To some , yes this is a House , and a house that I do not own. but equally this is our Home , it is my familys home. same classification as someone who borrows a house, which becomes a home, off of a bank for 35 years. The council housed us nearly 11 years ago , they led us to believe that we could have a secure tenancy here . The brutality of the initial inference by the council and shelter(presumably to get a quicky move done and dusted ), that we would lose our home and lose our kids !? what ?why .. oh because we have a 70 cubic foot spare room .. lovely. Brutality is lovely , especially in todays political climate . its good to be brutal with statistical humans huh imagine if those that purport to rule us , 10 years ago, set about actually creating a sustainable workable societal model instead of selling off housing stock / allowing right to buy / building the bare minimum allowed quota of new social homes. x rds thank you , although you have opened another massive can of reading material , I understand what you are saying. there definitely appears to be procedural impropriety in our case although shelter did not think it held any weight , but then again they did not see that the council had created legitimate expectation either !? I have been reading that link to the regulations for a fair few hours now and try to absorb what I can but it is the same as my research into human rights legislation .. a minefield of double meanings... for this approach to work I would need educated help .. as I guess the shelter bridge is burned , I don't know who else can advise on this level . any ideas ? does anyone know how the legislation defines "reasonable" as per the quote below ? (7F)The local housing authority shall not— (a)make a final offer of accommodation under Part 6 for the purposes of subsection (7); or (b)approve an offer of an assured shorthold tenancy for the purposes of subsection (7B), unless they are satisfied that the accommodation is suitable for the applicant and that it is reasonable for him to accept the offer.] frazzled head ,time for bed x I have found a tag thing here is mine.... "The right to housing is not about a roof anywhere, at any cost, without any social ties. It is not about reshuffling people according to a snapshot of the number of bedrooms at a given night. It is about enabling environments for people to maintain their family and community bonds, their local schools, work places and health services allowing them to exercise all other rights, like education, work, food or health." remarks by UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing, Rachel Rolnik x

hi Thankyou for replying deannatrois Out of choice , we don't want a private rental . we want to stay in our council home of nearly 11 years. we are just trying now to decide what is best to do , what appears to be on offer is option 1 .. a 2 bed flat with the LA . No lifetime tenancy just a "flexible" one .exposed to the whim of unknown decision makers. up to 5years only ... after this I guess my wife and I are on the street anyway. ... (no dependants) option 2 ... get forced into private accommodation (through the council relinquishing their duty) No lifetime tenancy. exposed to the whim of unknown wealthy landlord. If we fight our (weak) Human rights case .. we do stand a chance to keep our home and be awarded a proper (lifetime) tenancy. really don't know what to do , going to go pop soon ! The clock is back to ticking now as we have to attend a viewing of the offered flat on Tuesday next week ...

Hi cB , no contact yet , we are hiding behind the answerphone ! my wife has to go to a funeral Friday and will not be back for a few days so I shall maybe contact them Friday and say maybe view next week. I know from the last time that we viewed a property that as soon as we contact them, the pressure will be upon us. they wanted us to sign there and then last time.. thanks for responding , I shall be patient ..

any ideas anyone ? x

Hello again all Hope everybodys year is going well so far ! An update to our situation and a Question or 2 , (if anyone has the knowledge to answer) Since being hear last , I continued searching for an "astute" lawyer and thanks to daniellas suggestion I did find a lawyer who is now representing us (in a way! , I have to stand up in court ) The lawful point is legitimate expectation . We have been advised that at the moment the chances are 50/50. Last week i submitted a SAR request to the council to try to find out if there is any information in there that would support our case. Alas, this can take up to 42 days for us to receive this and as of yesterday the council contacted us about the offer of the 2nd flat with garden. They are now pushing for us to view obviously but we are away at the moment and need more time to receive the SAR data so we can see if there is any more cement to our case within . This obviously brings us to the point of trying to make a decision again whether to accept flat or fight for our home here . so my questions to you kind folk are from trying to evaluate any positives/negatives from what is on offer. One of their options is for us to go into the private rental market where we would get help with the deposit etc but I can see there is a wee issue with the stated LHA rates , our LHA rate is £766.52 pm but the average rent rate is £900. We cannot see how we can pay the £134 difference at the moment . Can they put us in this position legally? all I can see is future homelessness again through not being able to pay the private landlord the shortfall.??! The other option is obviously to accept the flat on offer but from my research we will be offered a 5yr flexi tenancy after a years introductory tenancy. This time scale means that when the council come to evaluate us again , our daughter will be 16. I believe the council will not have a duty to house us then anyway as we have no dependants , so will my wife and I be out on the street ? thankyou for your time if anyone reads this .. I have found a tag thing here is mine.... "The right to housing is not about a roof anywhere, at any cost, without any social ties. It is not about reshuffling people according to a snapshot of the number of bedrooms at a given night. It is about enabling environments for people to maintain their family and community bonds, their local schools, work places and health services allowing them to exercise all other rights, like education, work, food or health." remarks by UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing, Rachel Rolnik x

as an aside stu , can I tell stories on here ?... I am not really a fan of complaining, I have never found it to be that effective ! I do believe the last time I officially complained about something was with the very same council I am dealing with now. We used to have to visit the town hall quite often when my daughter was a toddler. In the foyer they had a child's play table, one of those simple easy clean ones with coloured bendy wires with shapes you move along .just that ,nothing else. As my daughter was playing I joined her at the table only to notice how dirty it was ! small bits of food matter all over its surface and spattered with a variety of drink blobs I guess. one of the blobs even appeared to have mould growing over it ! I stopped my daughter playing on it and mentioned to the reception desk that it really needed a clean .A couple of days passed and we were in the same place again , daughter toddles over to the table..as do I .. its still the same!!, so I take a pic and approach the reception again ... Well this process went on about 5 times over 2 weeks (the mould grew) , so I had 4 pics too which showed it was exactly the same grime.. on the last request to reception I was quite loud and took objection to them stating it was cleaned every night! This got me an immediate sit down with a "services" manager or something who recorded my issue and said it would be resolved. I said give me a cloth and I would do it . please don't worry sir he replies. excellent I thought someone is going to clean the table . long winded , stressful , but hey we are getting somewhere. I received an email a few days later apologizing for my experience in the foyer or something and he had been in contact with the foyer cleaning manager who assured him it was cleaned but staff are on a tight schedule and blah blah blah .. I visited the town hall the following day and incredibly it still had not been cleaned, that's over 2 weeks to my knowledge ! I sent the manager an email saying it was disgusting that they are not cleaning this table, childrens health bugs etc . I can only assume they then got fed up with me. on a visit a few days later I noticed there was no playtable at all . no play equipment at all . instead of cleaning it ,they had removed it . and I do believe till this day there is no play equipment in our council foyer . not quite the effect I was after.. x

thankyou again all I believe it will be an introductory tenancy desp , 10 years counts for nothing. I believe we then get the new 5yr fixed term tenancy as long as we follow the rules! despondence does not equate to giving up ! I am going to see a different solicitor tomorrow ,it may well be wasted effort , just to be told the same thing for the 3rd time , but I have to try . I find it really hard that they cannot look at the decision/s that has caused our potential loss of this house.(the original decision, the claims of arrears etc) they are looking only at the here and now. we feel incredibly anxious though because its been 7 working days since the council said they will contact us with the offer of the flat with the garden . now Monday will be a visit to the solicitor and if that's negative then a quick call to the council to see if their offer still stands.. xx

hi all well, travelled up to London today to speak with a solicitor . we have no hope they said , there's certainly been some maladministration and I could put in a complaint to the council about this . but as to any chance of making a case to try to stay here ,no chance. we are temporary housed , we are non secure . the council have made us an offer of a flat with a garden so it looks like we have no other choice but to accept it . heres the compromise I guess ray I have to help my daughter now but may try the local councillor as desp said in a little while . bit despondent at the mo obviously xx

thankyou

thankyou stu. have read it , and it appears to confirm that any appeal we can make is only once the council go to court for the eviction . As the council "sympathise" with us and "agree its unfair" but theres nothing they can do ,as "to do otherwise would be breaking the law" . I think creating a box that's labelled "insecure , non secure , placing people in it and saying they have no rights is breaking the law

desp.. yes that is one of my arguments , the reasons for paying the bedroom tax are quite clear. thanks for the human rights google idea , i like what i see already . i never actually did that search if u can believe it ! obviously i have done an incredible amount of reading thats led me off in many paths but most has been only to confuse me more or has been a frustrating cul de sac ..ie in the beginning i called the law society who after explaining a little bit gave me a list of solicitors in our local area . after going through all numbers ,none of them could help as did not do legal aid . got referred to local law centers ...our local law center is in south london ..about 25 miles away. i called them and they said i have to go to my local law center , i explained you are my local one ,they said no we are not local ,go to your local one !! aaaargh lol .lots of arranged callbacks that never came,etc Just a couple of examples of the past couple of weeks of frustration. it is refreshing to hear some other peoples inputs into our situation as it is very hard doing these things alone , and my heart is warmed by the fact people can be bothered. xx

yes that is why I do not class it as a valid threat really ,because our daughter would certainly never be "street homeless". and I have just read that link above from stu ,which appears to conflict with what shelter told me initially. I did feel as though they were pressuring us to take it ! hmmm clip.. No. Social services can only forcibly take a child away from her/his parents if there is clear evidence of a risk of abuse and a court order has been obtained. If social services offer to house the children but not the rest of the family, the parents are not normally obliged to accept this option. If social services offer to house the child alone, you should get specialist advice so it doesn't appear to be a valid threat anyway

yes sorry about my writing , have not had to write anything for years and have certainly never posted on a forum or anything before !

stu .. i would gladly name n shame ,but only once we are clear of any wrongdoing 1 they call it an "insecure tenancy" 2 NTQ reason is refusal of offer 3 they were offering an introductory tenancy on the flat 4 i have read so may rules n regs ,my brain is frazzled.i droop down on one sentence and soar to the skies on another! i really can make head nor tail of anything no more. 5 have said move to 2 bed property ..the awareness of the threat came from a chat with shelter 1st as that is who we called first. then a telephone chat with council i expressed this and they confirmed it would happen if we made ourselves street homeless through refusal. 6 erm housing list? read above post :{ ty

thankyou for the responses i shall try to outline some facts and actions ..our family want to stay in this house ,we feel this is our home,our community.we do not want to move. .. we have been housed in "temporary accommodation for 10 years .. over the space of 10 years our family size has shrunk to 2 adults 1 child due to our 2 eldest daughters moving out .. we have always said we would like to stay here since we first saw the house and have tried to get the council to evolve our tenancy to a secure one. in the early years they just did not respond to our interest in evolving the tenancy,later on around 2008 there was an attempt to advance the tenancy but after an inspection they listed some "alterations" that i had done that were not allowed. i fixed all of these alterations except one the same day. shortly after this i lost my job and had to claim jsa. this then evolved to esa as i had an emotional breakdown due to a few reasons. this all turned out to be an absolute nightmare and we found ourselves in debt with pretty much every government agency ! my duties were to supply a medical cetificate to dwp,they would claim not received for ages,this would then cause housing benefit department of our council to close our claim, an so thus causing overpayments. we always found the "appeals" process a catch 22 of cul de sacs so therefore it became a debt. we were in arrears. so you can see,to me the claim of arrears is unjust ,especially as they appear to have used in a judgement against us,let alone our honour in accepting their rules and paying it off anyway. So since then hoped that after paying our arrears off ,the tenancy could be evolved. (we only paid our arrears off fully this year) instead we were told to move to a one time offer of a 2 bedroom ground floor flat that had been adapted for disabled use. they said they would rip this out and install a new bathroom!!? we are an able bodied family by the way. if we refuse this offer we would make ourselves street homeless , as duty would be over, and the dss would have to be informed as we would be putting our daughter at risk because of our actions ! wow ! walllop ! i dont count it as a valid fear and am aware of the dss "duties" , was just more gobsmacked by the whole process , used to be a jackboot,now its a nice legal sentence. they have said there is no way we can stay due to allocation policies, arrears and alterations (which all,bar 1 were fixed 5 years ago) desp..yeah its not really them forcing us ,they are giving us a choice ,although a bit one sided to me, i shall try the councillor, which political strain ? dont think the tories are fans of social housing.. rds .. priority waiting list !..this would be the bidding bit etc ..erm we have our "own actions" with regard to this. since we moved in ,as i said we always elected to stay here so never filled in the forms to register or anything. we did this each year ,never sent a response as it said do not respond if you do not wish to remain on register. so for 10 years we never did because we did not want to bid on other properties. ray .. we now sit on a notice to quit , expiring on the 13th dec. from my comprehension so far my only way to appeal is at the end of the NTQ and that is the only time i can maybe get our case looked at.and then judicial review under HR to stop such things happening to others? please dont be too harsh with regard to judgements on our desire to stay here . i know and think lots about others that dont have homes etc , but maybe it needs a greater person than i to decide. and anyways we pay the bedroom tax xx

thankyou for the reply uncle , we have been to CAB , travelled 15 miles to one in an affluent town where we got an appointment instantly! (as our local one is overloaded) .they just told us to contact our MP. to me ,that would be a totally futile exercise . I don't understand why we could not have been told that over the telephone though ! I must confess ,I have not thought of the church really , last time I visited a church was during a breakdown that I experienced and desperately searching for help, found myself at a couple of local churches. maybe they could help me ... they were closed , nobody was home! bad timing maybe. I shall give them a call today although I don't have too much faith.. We do not have any rent arrears . x

hello all , hopefully there is someone who has knowledge of housing law mixed in with human rights law. Three weeks ago our lives had a wee change of circumstance. Within the space of 2 days it had been inferred that if we did not do as we are told, we would be street homeless and may lose our child to the SS. !?!!! !!!! (social services) ???what had we done ?are we criminals? aliens? incompetent humans? residents of a country where rights are toilet paper for the ruling class? it was worse than that. we are under occupiers of social housing. here are the facts, as brief as poss .. My wife ,three children and myself are housed in temporary accommodation ,under the homeless act by our local council, into one of their own properties. This was 10 years ago in 2003 . From the very 1st instance of meeting the council to view this house we requested that it would be our permanent home and have done ever since. With a half hope and a lot of insecurity we started our lives here. 10 years have passed and our 2 eldest daughters have upped and left to create their own families, so since around 2009, only my wife, youngest daughter of 10 years age and myself have lived here. this is a 3 bed house. it appears due to recent legal changes the council have chosen to assess us and decided we have to move to a 2 bedroom ground floor flat that has been adapted for disabled use (I believe they were going to rip it out and turn it back into a normal bathroom as we are all able bodied) they cite two reasons for this discretionary decision ..under occupation and rent arrears. when the "bedroom tax" initially came in we quickly elected that we would pay the 14% and so therefore there was not a problem with us under occupying. the arrears were paid off over time ,although these were accrued through an overpayment of housing benefit , I am not too sure if the council can class these as rent arrears . if not then surely they cannot be used as a reason not to give us a secure tenancy here. now I have spent a lot of time researching as much as I can , and getting advice through recognised channels but they have been pretty futile exercises , they all repeat what the government says . we found shelter to be useless I am afraid. added to this there appears to be a black hole in the southeast, where we live, for legal aid help and advice . we now sit not knowing how to proceed , I have lots of words in my head for a defence case but have no idea on its merits. we have 10 days left before our notice to quit . I do have an appointment with a solicitor ,closest one I could get was 25 miles away, to see if we have a case but not till next week and I really don't know what to say or do if the council make contact in the meantime ! can anybody refer us to some info specifically relevant or some knowledgeable brains please xx oh yes human rights aspect .... I feel as we have no rights as such as we are insecure tenants, our only appeal against this process/decision is through HR ie proportionality ,procedural impropriety , etc ?