Hi Andy, many thanks for all your advice. As it goes the claimant has neither a copy of my credit agreement(they don't evem know what date it was) , a copy of a DN notice, or a Final demand. I could scan you a copy of what they produced as a CCA and without any redaction you wouldn't identify me. It looks like i'm the 0.01% that you didn't account for. If i'd of stuck to the info in the sticky i'd of asked for the claim to be struck out if they didn't comply. Based on you saying they may send a barrister to resist such an action i never followed through with my request. Bad move on my part. I've submitted a defence, one i now know i needn't have done. Even on the flip side, even if they had all the docs then they wouldnt of sent a barrister (in my opinion) they'd of just complied or been struck out. Well what if they did indeed have them? Then they'd of complied. Luckily for me my defence leaves a lot of doors open to me and there are still other avenues open to me for them to produce the particulars of claim. I think your advice Andy was bad. It goes against the advice in the sticky too.And seeing as you are respected here as a legal guru and you advise different it leaves posters in a quandry, (or at least me). I ignored the sticky advice over yours as the sticky is old and your advice was current. Leaving aside what i feel. The forum should should do something about a situation wherby there is a sticky for advice then the 'advisors' proffer different advice. And make no mistake, you are proffered as a legal guru. I write this reluctantly as i do appreciate you give your time freely and without obligation, but also i write it as some one taking your advice and i heeded the reference to you being some sort of expert. And its left me with a problem. Also i guess that as any thread have loads of views i find it hard to believe that many people reading them have not had similar experiences, and there is no answer as to ........example...what might happen? 100+ views and not a response? Maybe everyone who has been to court and read has no info to share? So who's reading the posts? I've tried to ask my questions as..what are my options, so to get a wider view . Notwithstanding what i've said i'll keep this thread updated, even if its an example of what not to do. Yeah i'm feeling miffed. If its not enough to deal with people chasing your arse the last thing you need is independants having a nip at it too. As an aside i'm over 50, i'd had my bank account for well over 20years without a problem, probably over 30 years to be honest. Yes i got a loan, yes i got into difficulties. Yes i contacted everyone and told them. Somehow Lloyds shut down on me totally. I opened another bank account and to date have had no problem. Where might the problem lie on balance of probabilities ? Maybe i've just lost my marbles and decided to mess about with the only bank account i held in my whole life and have now started a new one as i'm fickle? Ok i'm ecxasberrated by the whole thing, and worried.

Sorry if i never made it clear, i have already counterclaimed.I done that when i filed off my defence. They have not addressed this yet. I have claimed for a modest sum in compensation for breach of statutory duty under BCOBS. It relates to them taking a loan payment from my current account (administered by the same claimant), in breach of the loan terms and conditions and putting me into an unauthorised overdraft for it . Then piling on charges ontop of charges whilst i was ,and told them, i was in financial difficulty. (Out of interest i'd never had an unauthorised overdraft in my life). It took them 10 months to finally refund the charges, the account was closed and i was still left a bill of £400 plus, which doesn't add up to any letters or figures provided by them.Nor the statements i have left, they never sent any after they closed the account even when charges where added on. They washed their hands of it and told me to contact the FOS. How long have they got to respond to counterclaim, it was recieved by the Court on the 6th November ? And i know they have recieved my defence which was served on the Court on the same date 6th November. I do own my own home, so it maybe a charging order they're after?

I'm happy to give them my IE and lay my cards on the table. Problem i see (or maybe i'm making it up in my own head) is that i still have another creditor (who has not taken me to court yet), so i'd assume payments have to be spread fairly ? As such, i don't have a "proposal", i'd prefer them to make one based on my IE. We may stalemate on this, so thats where the Mediation will come in hopefully. I'll put all this in the letter (if they don't read it here first !! ) The agreement is a very bad reconstruct, and thats putting it mildly. Firstly if i scanned it as is there is no way you would identify me or my address, the boxes for figures as so distorted compared to the figures within it that it just looks really wrong. There are timed and dated marks (top left hand corner) of i presume when it was faxed (2010) and yet the latest terms and conditions have been overlaid. or appear to be. They state Lloyds banking group, whereas i know they used to say Lloyds TSB Plc. And apart from that you can tell its all been hoofed together. I'll get the letters off to them and see where we go. They'll still have to address the issue of the counter claim though. WOuld it be more helpful if i was to detail more what my counterclaim is about in here for some advice?

Hi again, i've recieved all my replies. Basically CPR 31.14 (very late) request consists of a 'copy of the loan agreement', no DN, no FD. I've recieved a reply to CPR 18 request which confirmed my suspicions. They do not know the date of the loan agreement. I'd also asked them if they held a copy of the loan agreement (i asked this as i had not had a response to my CPR 31.14 request). They confirmed they had sent a copy of the loan agreement under section 78 and there is no requirement for them to send the original. I never asked under S78 (it came as my cpr 31.14 request) ,i'm aware there's a slight mistake there anyway. There was a slight crossover with the timing of me recieving the late 31.14 request and me asking part 18 questions. Further to the part 18 request they want to hurry me along with submitting my Income and expenditure they want to know which way they are going and if they need to ask the court to allocate a hearing. I have filled in a income/ex form with CCCS (step change), i do have another outstanding debt of a credit card. Total debt 10k. The outcome of the CCCS form is that i need to go on a DMP, i can do that with them as its free. I'm guessing i'm to far down the line now though ? My payments to creditors (2) would total £80 a month. I'll send it off to them anyway. Anyone got any guesses as to what will happen next? I've filled in the DQ and the mediation form that i will accept mediation. I get the feeling that the sols want to rush through some sort of consent/order or what ever. Anyone else been in a similar position,any advice at all ?

44 views and not a reply? Further to this i've read that a DSAR won't show up a Default Notice. Specifically a DSAR request should show up such notice as its that notice that is relied upon the enter the information on the credit file.

Hi again, i just wanted to add some more even though i'm inexperienced in all the protocols etc.. Be aware that if you get no response, or some sort of negative response you'll need to make your mind up what to do next. Read my thread for how the CPR request panned out for me and look at the advice i was given and the options i took. As was explained to me, making an order they may oppose might not be a great idea. That doesn't mean all is lost yet. You can still do a CPR 18 request, even if they havn't answered. Think hard on what them questions are likely to be. Oh, another thing is that a lot of credit card agreements (such as yours) prior to 2007 have been found to be unenforcable. Do some googling on this subject..credit card agreements prior to 2007. That may lead you to your next move.

I just wanted to discuss the wider implications of Default Notices if anyone is interested. Consumer Credit Act mentions ..."The need for Default Notice" and sets out the statutory provisions of such notice. Replies here often say along the lines of "they [the claimant] don't need a copy of such notice"...just proof it was sent. I've never seen any authority for such a proposition, so i tend to accept what i read. And i've looked and not found any such authority supporting the idea. Like many people i have found my way here to this very forum because i have a legal problem with a debt, i.e i'm being taken to court. I find the sticky above..."getting them to reveal their vitals using CPR 31.14" to give me some sort of direction to take a lead on the proceedings, get on an equal footing and know (rather than assume) exactly what i'm up against. Actual information from troops on the ground leads us to.. [1] They can provide a reconstructed agreement. [2] They don't have to provide a copy of the default notice. [3] They don't have to provide a copy of the final demand. So, whats the point of the sticky? Is this now a moot point? Of course as a debtor in trouble i hope they provide such documents and they are inacurate, false or whatever then i can challenge them if i have originals. I suspect Claimants fully realise this so they shirk from producing them if possible. Again the advice here is that they don't need to produce them. So where does that leave us? Something doesn't sit right with me that such statutory requirements do not need to be provided. It makes no sense to say they don't need a copy. The dates and amounts are a regulatory requirement, how can there be no need to prove such requirement was met with? I may have found such a requirement for such documents to be made available, or in any case recorded by the claimant [creditor] and i'd be interested on anyones feedback. When the Default Notice is issued, usually the Creditor[Claimant] will file a Default on your Credit File. Here's the guidance from the Information Comissioners Office..... http://www.ico.org.uk/~/media/documents/library/data_protection/detailed_specialist_guides/default_tgn_version_v3%20%20doc.ashx Look at Section 39 specifically. It says......... Accuracy of a lender’s default records 39 Records Any default record should be accurate. We normally expect a lender to keep records that are necessary to show an agreement exists and to support filing a default. We would al so expect a lender to be able to produce evidence to justify a default record they had placed on a credit reference file. Not having any supporting records may indicate a breach of the data protection principle requiring personal data to be adequate, relevant and not excessive for the purpose for which it is processed. A record that a notice of an intention to file a default was sent, if not a copy of the notice itself, will help lenders to comply with this requirement. Now my understanding is that if they do not have supporting evidence of an agreement nor a default record they may be breaching data protection principles? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Hi Dis, i'll let someone else advise you over the matter of timing between a N244 form and filing a defence. As far as i know you can contact the sols/claimant (or whoever is mentioned as dealing with it on your claim form) and ask them for an agreement to delay filing your defence until they have complied. You would need to get this agreed in writing preferably, and how you actually go about deffering it in practice even with the agreement i'm unsure of the correct steps to take. One of the more knowledgeable members will probably advise here.

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Thanks for the advice Angel, i won't waste anyones time over something so trivial. (Unless i find out it matters). I'm still scratching my head and trying to work out why the copy of the agreement they sent me is a six page, facsimile copy and is undated with no signature boxes on it. I digitally signed an online agreement, and from memory it was one page that filled the screen. Curiously the date of the agreement is never mentioned anywhere, not even in the POC ?

Thanks for reply Ford. I see that CPR 31.14 does not apply to a small track claim, but as an untracked claim it does apply? I appreciate this last point is arguable. From what i read CPR 18 applies to any track. In any event it is a small track DQ, and it suggests the case is applicable for the small track. I just need to agree to that. Reading further into CPR 18 requests i see its not a good idea to submit multiple queries. Although i'm not suggesting its impossible. I've learnt a lot already and i havnt even got to court yet. I should of sent the CPR 31.14 sooner i think and i should of followed through with the request i made. As its turned out, they don't have a copy of the DN they mentioned, or the final demand. They do however have a copy of the agreement. Due to me dilly dallying over what to do when they never responded to my request,i have filed a defence . I also based my CPR 18 request along the lines of such no admission of documents and they have crossed paths. So what they have responded to now by way of a late CPR 31.14 request has led me to further questions and i now feel i don't want to pester them again. As things stand i'll not request more information for now as i'm comfortable with what i have .Seeing as i have all the documents and they don't. They have sworn a statement of truth based on these documents they havn't seen. I feel i'm in a strong position, although the reality may be very different !! I've got util the 22nd of this month to reply to the DQ and i'm happy to consider mediation. My Dsar has been confirmed as being made to me by just after that date so that may answer other questions i need to know. Thats should be handy if i need to compile a statement/argument. I will when needs be push them for proof of posting and logs, as the late CPR 31.14 response appears to be a mishmash of a reponse to my request and an attempt to answer my defence points. It also included a copy of my first years loan account statement. They sent me three of these in seperate envelopes in the last week. I find adding to this post helps me keep track of where i am up to, so i'll continue to keep it updated as i go along. I'll say this for anyone who is facing a situation like mine, i've done all the reading till my eyes are sore, i've done all the reading about agreements ( and how they can be reconstructed), default notices and how they have to be this and that, and final demands and they have to say this and that and to date i'm going through and defending a claim with an agreement (undated) , no DN (they don't need to be kept apparently) and no Final Notice (they don't have to be kept either) . Maybe i'm missing a trick here. Maybe a small or irrelevant point i'll make here. My agreement was signed online, i.e digitally. The terms and conditions where in a small box on the page and you would have to scroll through them all to see them. For an example of what i mean, if you look at this forum page you will see a small box with a CAG twitter feed, thats where the loan terms and conditions where. My copy is a six page document. Also, again maybe irrelevant, my APR on agreement was 10.1%, on the copy its 10.10%, annual interest on agreement is 9.7% on the copy its 9.71%, all other figures are correct. I'll keep you all updated as it goes.

I read somewhere recently, may of been here or somewhere else, i done that much reading its hard to remember it all, here it is...........What if the Judge asks do you owe the money? I much prefer these simplistic questions. Of course no one ever goes to court just because they owe money, so perhaps the question is overly simplistic. The simple questions for me is, why take me to court now and not two years ago? Enough waffling from me, here's a serious question. I have made a CPR 18 request. Is there anything to prevent me from making another now i have realised i would like more questions to be answered ?

I'm couldn't say if you're wrong or right. But my claim is against the claimant, its inextricably linked to the loan account and does involve my current account. I wouldn't of thought a seperate claim which address's matters pertaining to the loan payments would be a good idea? Although i could be wrong and am open to advice. I suppose one question my claim would address is..if the claimant takes money what is not there to pay a loan, then counts that payment as 'unauthorised' and charges me for it, do you see a conflict of interest there? [1] As my banker they have to treat me fairly and look after my interests [2] As my loan provider they should keep to the terms and conditions of the loan and give me notice they will take such action. Of course a court may decide they where right to indebt me to keep up with the loan repayments, then charge me for it, and whilst they have recieved a letter explaining a change of my financial circumstances to continue charging me for it. Then within a very short time frame demand the full sum when its clear from my income and expenditure that i can't afford it. So if racking my current account up totally with charges exceeding a thousand pounds, demanding full repayment of a loan of several thousand pounds at the same time is fair treatment then i'm sure i'll loose.

Yes i have been paying CRapex credit since 2011. My downfall that has started this was to ignore the recent final demand i recieved from [problem] sols, which came out the blue really. I thought it was just like the other notices i was recieving over my current account which was in dispute . It wasn't and here we are.

Yeah, my defence and counterclaim was submitted on the 5th, on the 7th(yesterday) i had a reply from the sols (dated 6th) , and today i have a DQ (dated the 5th). I'm happy to co operate rather than go to court so as well as filling out the DQ i'll also send off income and expenditure to the sols. I'll show more than willing to settle. Flip side is they'll have to offer to settle my counterclaim regarding my current bank account. Either way it will all get sorted out together.

Fair question. As i'm not relying on the agreement for enforcement and the claimant is i thought the request for what they have was a reasonable one, so i can acertain what they are going to rely on. I never asked for any statements as i have them provided to me. I asked for a copy of the DN as i am missing a sheet from mine so would of liked to confirm what the other sheet was, and the amounts claimed do not match what my DN says. Bear in mind the particulars of claim state that no amount has been paid . Also the claimant has said they do not have a copy of it. A CPR 18 request could confirm what they know about the DN ? Which is probably nothing. I find it puzzling that they are prepared to accept a monthly agreement to avoid court action (which i am happy to co operate with) when they have never contacted me in over two years? And i have been paying, i havn't dropped off the radar or anything. Oh, the FD, they don't appear to know about that either. They appear to have picked a random figure from a past balance and threw it on the claim form as something to go with. The only concrete thing so far is the agreement. I have recieved a small claims directions questionnare today, so i'll get that filled in and aree to the mediation/settlement and see where we go from there. They still have a counterclaim to deal with though. I'd appreciate any advice as i'm just dealing with this as i go along.

Hi yohe ,you have to be very careful here as you are going to be dealing with several complicated laws, the process of Probate and Administering what looks to be an insolvent estate and land/property issues. None of it is going to be straightforeward for you given what Barclays have said . I'm assuming it is yourself that is administering the estate and if so your first priority has to be to the creditors of the estate. Its important to remember that bit as anything you do or don't do could lead you to be personally liable. I'm really out of my depth with it and can only pass on my experiences. They've made it clear they have recognised what they see as an asset. You now need to find out what your exact status is as regards joint tenancy, tenancy in common etc.. I think your first port of call should be to contact your mortgage company and ask them how you can find out this information. Once you get this information you will be better placed to get some detailed advice. I'd go to one of them free Legal Clinics for some initial advice, some Universities etc do these. That may narrow down the issues you need to concentrate on. We where fortunate in that we just sent off copies of Letters of Administration, Death Cert and told them there was no monies to pay the accounts and they closed them. Good luck with it all.

Hi yohe, sorry for your bad news. Does the house have much equity in it? I recently had to deal with an estate and even though there was a property and a mortgage we never had any problems informing the creditors that the debtor had passed away. It was a simple process for us. All of them closed the accounts without question. Who is telling you the CCJ cancells tenancy?

ok SC sols now have a wiggle on. Defence (and counterclaim) submitted by email on the 5th. Ive now got a letter from SC sols., dated yesterday the 6th.[EDITED TO ADD] it was titled response to CPR 31.14 request. A copy of the loan agreement and terms and conditions, all seems fine. Except for no date on it? No signatures, or boxes but i assume they're not needed in anycase. An explanation that the DN was issued on the 21/12/2010 and sent via 1st Class post, therefore no proof of posting is available to the bank. Same for the formal demand, (no copy) just proof it was issued. Statement for how the balance was accrued........... This is the same statement they sent me the other day. It details the loan account since its inception and for the full year with no missed payments, albeit the latter months showing the token payments. The balance showing does not correlate to the amount claimed. (there has been no mention of me paying Crapex Credit, which i had been doing) Then goes onto say...our client is willing to try agree a monthly settlement by way of a consent order. Forward income/expenditure along with a proposal of repayment. Last sheet of paper which is highlighted to show the DN and FD dates is like a case sheet for me,with all my info on. Interestingly (or not!) It shows third parties as CCBC ,Northampton and HCC [my local court] County Court. Then "Router Position" Defence recieved. No mention of counter claim on it and the recent memos box has been blanked out.

Hi Andy, i finalised it with............ TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU. What options are open to me realistically if they don't answer, beqaring in mind they ignored the CPR31.14 request, i would like to get in before any next stage if i can. Stay the Claim until the requestes are complied with, is that more realistic that a strike out?

Ok thanks for that. In all probability they will run on with the case, as even in the highly unlikely event they didn't want to continue they'd still have to answer my claim? Maybe i'll get some form or contact from them beforehand. I have sent a simple CPR18 request today, just a simple request more information, ive kept it simple and clear and questions only. The only answers possible would be yes/no or to give a date i asked for. If they do not comply with this request what recourse would i have ? Or put another way, do i have any pro active options of recourse if they don't comply as opposed to letting get into court and then complaining about lack of response? Bear in mind i sent a CPR31.14 request and didn't follow through with the actions i threated, i regret that now, but never the less i would like to be prepared this time.

Hi again, i sent off Defence and Counterclaim by email, all was accepted and i've paid the counterclaim fee. If i got this right, my understanding is that (usually) the Claimant has 28 days to respond to my defence and tell the court its wants to proceed? How (if at all) has the situation changed now i have counterclaimed?

I think it read like a witness statement

Here's my counter claim against the defendant. Is it ok or to long, could i shorten it? (i know i could certainley add to it !!!) P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }P.western { } Particulars of claim 1. The defendant has held a current bank account numbered xxxxxxxxxxxxxx with Lloyds TSB (the Claimant) for over 20 years without blemish. It was to long !!! I'll work on it.

I'll try it thanks Andy, but i couldn't on it last week, actually i havn't got on it at all. I'll email it and send it 1st Class, special delivery etc...