I suppose the curvature at the entrance to the road played a part and the movement by the 4X4 as well, maybe they flew round the corner (who knows except them) and yes perhaps he should have been off down the road, but then we have always discouraged him from racing about in the same way as we banned him from having any distractions like music in the car until he'd gained the experience of driving on his own after passing his test. If he had been a bit faster and the 4X4 a bit slower in moving on it is doubtful this could have happened. Unfortunately no he didn't get any witnesses - he rang me and I tried to talk him through what he needed to do but he was rattled by the experience and they (husband and wife) were also talking at him (apparently they didn't know what to do either), and some of what I tried to get him to do got lost in translation. He took photos but not really of the scene as I said, but the damage to the cars. Yet in other respects he was really sensible - like putting on his hazards (they didn't) and wearing a high visability jacket. I suppose all we can do is perhaps write out what happened and do some drawings and see if that does any good. Just don't feel it is fair on him to lose his NCD without a bit of a fight. It just seems sometimes that people can do all sorts of bizarre things on the road and others pay the price. Some years ago my husband had a transit fly into the back of him whilst he was in stationary traffic (waiting for a car to turn right across the opposite carraigeway as it happens). He saw in his mirror that he was bearing down on him fast and also that he was leaning forward playing with the radio or something, but there was nowhere for him to go to get out of the way. Rather than stop, this bloke took off overtaking the cars in front and turning into that side road driving on the wrong side of the carraigeway and the set of bollards down the middle. We had a witness and the reg and reported it to the police and the insurance company and neither did anything about it. The police apparently visited him 6 months later, he said he didn't recall hitting anybody and they just accepted it. Although treated as a non fault (our bonus was protected anyway) our car was never the same again after being smashed up the rear.

danielr I wish there was some way I could reproduce how the road looks here as think you'd see how everybody could be where they were. He says he did look as was mindful of pedestrians which he wouldn't have been able to see through the 4X4. However, as he entered the road nobody else could have been there because of the 4X4. The problem is that the junction is not a nice staright one but one which has a curve and the movement of the 4X4 as soon as my son was across allowed this driver to slip into the side road following this curve-as I say impossible to explain without drawings. Think we need to print off the satelite stuff and send to the insurer. Yes even as a non fault claim he may lose out but that's nothing compared to NCD. Besides if you change companies it is easy enough to get a quote without a claim, then with a non fault, and then with a fault to see the difference - if insurers were too greedy I would expect the FSA to be on their case.

Oh and Sailor Sam I wasn't saying it was a rear end collision, only that the Claims Handler was trying to tell me that certain circumstances designate fault to a specific party i.e. somebody could brake suddenly to look in a shop window and somebody behind would be at fault if they hit the front car. In this instance he was stating that because my son had crossed in front of oncoming traffic, which wasn't oncoming as everything was stopped, that automatically makes him liable.

It is in fact very difficult to describe the road layout without drawing it and if, as the claims handler did you refer to googlemaps even that is not truly representative. As you say you should be able to state your case and draw pictures. My son did take photos but it was dark and he only had his mobile which has no flash so was a complete waste of time. The fact is his car was completely in the side road - he wasn't doing any speed himself as had shown caution to the potential for pedestrians, but all the same he had completed his manoeuvre, had he not done so the 4X4 would have hit him when he moved forward. The TP had failed to notice him on the other side of the road whilst sat in traffic indicating to turn right, failed to see him move, and failed to see any part of his car as it hurtled towards his side. If she (as it happens) was so blind to what was going on in front of her, then clearly she also wouldn't have seen if a car in front of the 4 X 4 had also decided to get off the main road and I suspect the outcome would have been the same but the liability not. I used to work in insurance and non fault claims do not affect your NCD. All an insurance company can do is not provide any part of any negotiating discounts to either get or retain your business. My son could potentially have to pay an additional £300+ next year and he'll pay again the following year and it won't be until the third year he'll be back to square one. As far as the traffic is concerned, yes it was stationary. It is slow most evenings during rush hour, but at this time of the year it grinds to a halt because there is only 2 major routes out of the town, which even if you choose to go "the pretty way" still involves you using one or t'other for part of your journey.

On Tuesday my 25 year old son was driving home from work at about 5pm, and because of the time of the year was finding everywhere virtually gridlocked. So he decided to get off the main route and proceed via the minor roads. He needed to enter a side road which involved crossing the opposite carraigeway and was indicating right whilst wating to do so. The traffic on the opposite side was stationary and a 4X4 had left the road junction clear and waved my son across. When he was fully in the side road the 4X4 moved forward a bit - perhaps because those ahead of him had done so, perhaps because he didn't want to leave the way free for anything coming out of the side road to pull out in front of him. It would appear the car behind used that bit of movement to turn left into the side road and hit my son's car in the passenger door (as only 2 door around the middle of the car). There are a variety of issues relating to the road which forms a triangle with another part of the same road which also has an entrance onto the same main road. Had TP wished to turn into this road they could have done so at the first junction but didn't, instead using a junction which by direction favours those turning from the otherside carraigeway. I personally feel it was a snap decision made because of the traffic situation, and in their quest to move down the side of the 4X4 as soon as a gap appeared, they had failed to consider anybody else being in the road, and if it had been a pedestrian crossing they wouldn't have stood a chance. Details were taken and when my son got home he rang the insurers who coincidentally also insure the TP and was told he was at fault as he had crossed the path of oncoming traffic to enter the side road. Accepting this would mean him paying the excess and losing two years of his NCD which has only just started making his insurance costs realistic. I also spoke to the claims handler and advised him that we disputed his liability and was told it was the law so as in rear damage shunts you have no redress. As far as I am concerned if his fault lies with him crossing oncoming traffic, that only has a validity if the traffic is oncoming when he made his manoeuvre, but it wasn't, everything was stationary in front and behind the 4X4 and the only movement that occured was once he was safely in the side road. Should we fight? Do we really have a leg to stand on?

Sorry, when I originally posted didn't intend for my problems to cause a row between other posters. I am hoping the last few entries are in fun but... I have read what everybody has said, and will have a good think about where we go from here. To be honest, when everything blew up back in July and Phil decided he no longer wanted anything to do with his mother, I was relieved because I thought that we'd finally be rid of the stress she has given over the years. Rather stupidly I suppose, we assumed she'd have the probate people on her back requesting whatever it is they like to see, and that in the fullness of time we'd be able to see the will as a public document so that if she had failed to offer him items his Dad had wanted him to have, we could pursue that. It simply never occurred to me that she could get away (legitimately or otherwise) with not applying for probate (if that is the case). When one of my Nans died in the early 60's her estate was investigated. As with most of that generation, she'd raised the family while Grandad worked, and in truth she had nothing other than her clothing, and some odd bits of relatively valueless jewellery (wedding ring & such like). However, the powers that be wanted a full inventory of all her stuff (even down to the value of her undies), needed to know she had threepence ha'penny in her purse at the time she died, and insisted that Grandad go to their office to swear an affidavit to that effect, taking 2 witnesses with him. How times seem to have changed. We don't want to be involved in Ma-in-laws life any more. If we felt she'd be receptive to appropriate help for her condition, things may be different, but we know she wouldn't be, and that it is her belief that everybody else is in the wrong. While Phil's Dad was about it was worth the effort to keep in touch with him, and tolerate her, but now we just can't do it. We have cared about them, so that when she decides to unplug the phone when she doesn't want to talk to anybody, I have had the line checked, and once even sent my brother round to check they were okay, though I hated involving him as it put him in her firing line. She did this shortly after Phil's Dad was ill, and after 2 days of trying to get through Phil did the 360 mile round trip because he couldn't be sure that she'd even tell him if his Dad died - she'd certainly never ring us, so any news good or bad would be waiting for Phil's usual weekly call. Just want to know for sure about the will, and then let her get on with her life however she wants to lead it, so we can get on with ours. Whether we will be able to remains to be seen. However, thanks for the advice. Will let you know any developments.

Getting her assessed is not an option. Apart from the issue of us living 160 miles away, she'd probably not open the door to the doctor, and in any event she'd probably come across as perfectly able. My son was with his Dad over the final couple of days, and at 24 he takes little notice of family issues generally. However, when he returned here he did say he never wanted to see her again, as he couldn't believe that she could emit so much bile while her husband lay dying. He also said that when a nurse or doctor appeared to check his Grandad over she was all sweetness and light and the suggestion was that they were talking about happy times. As soon as said doctor or nurse disappeared her face would screw up and she'd be swearing about somebody else - for Doctors & Nurses & when they'd gone. As they say the last thing to go is the hearing, I think it is so sad that he had to listen to her ranting on as he died. I will try the will writing people to see if under any circumstances they will let us have a copy. We had just hoped that somebody would have insisted she apply for probate and submit the will to the public records, so we could ensure she was fulfilling her duties, but it seems not. Yes I suppose we could get all heavy handed and call in a solicitor, but it seems wrong to make waves if, as she said, it's now all hers, as all we'd be doing is enhancing her hatred towards us, and incurring an expense. It would also perhaps be even more hurtful to my husband to find his Dad didn't consider him at all in his will (or she didn't let him).

Yes she has been a trial to say the least. We accept she is mentally ill but there is absolutely no way we'd ever get her to the doctors. She talks about the house being bugged, and do you know, I wish I COULD install a camera to record her antics. When my husband called to take her to the hospital to be with his Dad, she first asked if he'd been followed (?). When he got inside he found she had 3 radios on, which would be bad enough, but none were tuned to a radio station, they were just all emitting that high pitched screech. Apparently, that ensures those who are bugging her can't hear her conversation! Phil's Dad may (possibly) have still been with us today if when he was first ill she had allowed him to visit the doctor. Well, he's a man I hear you say, why couldn't he just do what he wanted - several months of her in a strop that's why? Phil's Dad also had cataracts so as he could barely see, he was very reliant her (which she liked as he'd do as he was told), but after his initial cancer operation Phil kept on at him about getting his eyes sorted and his Dad showed an interest. Phil persisted with the topic (despite her standing behind his Dad making throat slitting signs at Phil), and he did get his eyes done. Although the cancer got him in the end, he had 18 months of being able to see and enjoy the world again, something she would have been happy to deny him. Now I can tell you all of this, and believe me some of it you couldn't make up, but it's only us who see it. Yes she'll go out shopping and probably most who meet her see her as an ordinary old lady, but she avoids contact with anybody who might realise she's not right. So, all health professionals (including vets) are not to be contacted, and she'd rather live in a hovel that claim what she is entitled to, as filling in forms may also give away her mental state - goodness knows what she will do about the census next month! I have got to the point where I couldn't give a damn about her (although years ago did try to understand what made her as she was), but she is still Phil's Mum and I hate the grief she causes him. It's stress with her in our lives, and also stress without her. Which is why I would just like to see that will so we can put it to bed. I just cannot understand how it can be that no official bodies seem to pursue the estate when somebody's death is registered. Yes I can accept that if there was nothing there they are not interested, but what if they lived in a £300K home with stacks of cash in the bank (or under the bed knowing her)? Wouldn't Mr Taxman like to know?

Thanks also for your comments PriorityOne. I have known my husband for 36 years and throughout that time we have tried to understand what exactly is wrong with her. She does have some sort of persecution complex, but why this is so defeats us. Former friends (of Phil's dad) and the extended family have had nothing to do with them for years, and that suits her. I stopped my daughter going to see her Grandmother when she gained a little puppy fat when she was 9 or 10, because Ma-in-law would come right out and tell her she was fat, without considering how self conscious she was about it anyway and how devastated she'd be. I liked Phil's Dad very much, but I gave up tolerating her insults - just didn't need her pointing out the many flaws I know I have. My family wouldn't do it to Phil, why should I have to put up with it? If all this s**t was just levelled at outsiders, perhaps I could excuse it, but she doesn't trust her own son either. In the days she bothered to send our kids a little something for birthdays/Christmas she always posted cash, and when Phil said it wasn't the safest thing to do, she told him she wasn't going to send a cheque, as he'd have access to her bank details. When Phil's dad died (and they were still talking) she seemed to think that we should up sticks and return to Essex, presumably so Phil could be on tap to do all the things his Dad had done, provide a taxi service, and generally run errands. When everything blew up Phil said that he simply could not stand the stress of being at her beck and call for the next 20 years just to inherit their bungalow, which in any event is already going downhill, and she'd probably not leave to him anyway. She'd consider she had truly won if she left it to the cats home - one of the reasons I'd dearly love to establish who does own it. It may not really be hers to give!!!!

No you haven't missed anything. There is a will which was drawn up using a will writing company, who, in simple terms, do just that. They are not solicitors, they simply help people to prepare a will which clearly interprets the clients wishes, and they provide witness signatures to that will. A fee is paid and their job is effectively done. They may keep a copy on their computers but I assume will only provide a copy to the executor (if asked), not to just anybody who turns up with a copy death certificate. We know Phil's Dad had his own copy, but bearing in mind what I have said, she has it and will clearly not provide us with a copy, or more probably, she has destroyed it, in her quest to ensure nobody knows what is in it other than her. She knows there is a will, we know there is a will, but how does whoever would declare a person intestate know there's a will, if nobody follows up on an estate when the death is registered? I know it is hard to comprehend, but this is a woman who would totally disregard what people may tell her concerning her duties as executor, because it would conflict with her belief that her business is her own, and as she would see it, everything that belonged to her husband would be hers regardless of any minor bequests he may have made.

Right, have had a look at your replies and I will now try to respond to the points raised. We are not looking at a large estate here - the bungalow plus whatever cash she squirreled away over the years (Phil's Dad only ever had pocket money and she got stuck to the rest). Although the place next door sold recently for £150K, it is unlikely theirs would be worth that as it's run down, and because she won't allow people into her domain, the central heating system died completely several years ago. We tried very hard to convince his Dad to apply for the grant which would enable replacement, but his Dad said she'd not complete the forms to claim, nor would she allow anybody in to do the work. The bungalow was actually purchased by Phil's Grandad and they paid him for it on an interest free loan. We assume when it was completed the deeds were transferred but whether this would have just been to his Dad or jointly we don't know, although suspect the former as ma-in-law was never their cup of tea either. We can find nothing on the land registry, but all this went on prior to such things being recorded, and in fact it may be the deeds were simply handed over when the loan was complete, and it's still in the Grandfather's name - which would be a laugh as his estate went eventually to Phil's Aunt. To be quite honest, it would amuse us no end if it turned out she was living in a property owned by the dreaded sister-in-law! So we are not talking a large estate, certainly well under the £300K IHT mark. As for her being removed due to mental capacity - well whilst I could fill a book on things she has done or said which beggar belief (when her own daughter was murdered her response was that she probably deserved it), it is only family (and mainly our little unit) who see her antics. She has been as she is as long as I have known my husband, and he reckons she has always been like it. She simply doesn't interact with anybody else, doesn't go to the doctor, dentist or optician, preferring to get glasses from a car boot sale. When Phil's dad was first taken ill 3 years ago she insisted she'd "treat" him, until he finally collapsed in the August, and was taken to hospital to be finally diagnosed with stomach cancer. When he did go in it was by ambulance, and she didn't want us to know anything (we live 160 miles away incidentally). My brother is a paramedic, and although he didn't attend, she felt those who did would tell him and he'd tell me. Apart from the obvious factor that they wouldn't have known he knew the patient, even if he attended himself he couldn't have told us. However, her bee in the bonnet led her to ring my Mum who she hadn't spoken to since we got married to get her to stop my brother letting us know. Obviously, my Mum told me because as she said she could not have lived with herself if Phil's Dad had died then, and she knew he was in hospital but hadn't let us know. All we really want to do is see the will. If every last thing was left to her, then so be it. If she doesn't ensure the appropriate people are told, well be it on her own head if somebody eventually collars her. However, if Phil's dad left anything whatsoever to Phil as a memento, he is entitled to have it (or if she has disposed of it so he can't, the equivalent monetry value of it -not that this is what he'd want though). I just find it astounding that somebody dies, and there is no obvious attempt by any government bodies to insist that probate IS applied for, and that a copy of the will is sent to them to form part of public records. Surely they have an interest to make sure any tax which could be due is paid, and without a copy of the will shouldn't Phil's Dad be declared intestate, and have his estate subject to distribution according to any rules there?

Thanks for all your replies. Will study properly tomorrow when I am less tired and can digest everything properly.

I have come in here with my issue, as in some respects it is not unlike the problems the original poster has experienced. My husband's mother is either mentally unsound, or very clever and she has alienated pretty much everybody over the years. She is quite frankly the nastiest person I have ever met, and my husband feels pretty much the same although occasionally he has said "but she is my mum". She believes everybody is out to get her in one way or the other - either they want to know all her business, or looking to fleece her in some way. She will not visit an optician because she believes they can read her thoughts through her eyes, and even as a 10 year old my hubby was being told their home was bugged. I could give you so many examples of her behaviour, but don't want to bore you, and do need to see if I can get a straight answer to a question which the internet has failed to clarify. Whilst my husband remained in contact with his parents, this was more for his Dad's sake than anything, and sadly he died last July. During his last couple of days in hospital, she continued to spit out venom towards all and sundry, and she insisted that nobody be told about his death, as he didn't want them to know (more likely she didn't). A couple of years ago following an initial cancer operation, Dad-in-law told Phil he'd made a will, and my hubby was named as executor. We subsequently got a letter from what we assumed were solicitors, which have to say we scanned quickly, and put in a safe place. So when he died, my husband said to her he'd need access to relevant documents in order to apply for probate, and even though he knew it would happen, she made it quite clear he was seeing nothing (and indeed she had a bonfire the very next day). After 2 days of her using him as a taxi service, but otherwise attempting to exclude him, and belittling him in front of others, he had an almighty row with her, and rang me in a state to say there was no way she would give him access to anything, and he couldn't see how he could act as executor. I told him that he could withdraw, and should do so if he felt that her need for secrecy could land him in trouble with authorities. He went to the "solicitor" who turned out to be merely a will writing firm. He didn't get access to the will as "she" had the death certificate, but when he said that he did not wish to continue acting because of his mother's behaviour, he was told his mother was an executor - something neither his Dad nor she had mentioned. When we looked at the letter from the will writing people again, hubby was apparently an executor in substitution which seems to mean that instead of being an executor, he would only ever have acted if she couldn't (and in truth she'd have never allowed that to happen). So, they are now estranged and she didn't even tell him when the funeral was, I found out through the crematorium. Through her attitudes and determination, a well liked man went to his maker with 4 mourners present - her, myself, hubby and son. Now, knowing what she's like we believe that it is unlikely she'd apply for probate.She told hubby that everything was left to her, and whilst we have no issues with that, there are other minor things which Phil's Dad had often said would be hubby's when he'd gone (tools for example). We have applied for a copy of the will but so far nothing has been put in the public domain, and it is currently subject to a standing search. What we cannot establish is whether she is legally bound to apply for probate and submit the will to them. I have spoken to the legal line on my home insurance, and quite honestly feel the lady didn't grasp what I was saying as she suggested we write to his mum and contact the probate office. Well the first suggestion would be a waste of time as any letter we wrote would join other documents on her bonfire, and the probate office seemed to feel we should make an appointment to our local office to search for the same documents which have not been forthcoming by our paid for standing search. So, you have the background. Can anybody tell me if she has to apply for probate to get her sticky hands on everything, and whether she must submit the will to the authorities. I can only establish that probate isn't always required, although the estate here would be the house (about £150K) plus cash in the joint account, plus personal bits and bobs. Bear in mind that if she has to disclose information to get hold of something, she'd probably not bother, so even if the house stayed in his name she wouldn't see that as an issue, and she has access to the money as the account was a joint account so she could carry on as she always has. Would be most grateful for any advice if only to put the matter to bed for my husband's sake. He hasn't been able to grieve properly for his Dad because her behaviour comes into his thoughts, and then he gets upset and angry. We know that even if he was left anything, she won't tell him and would probably get rid of it just out of spite, but if we were sure it was worth fighting for we'd possibly move to have her removed as executor, but don't want to do so just to see a bit of paper that doesn't even acknowledge my husband exists (which if she was involved in it, is probably the case).

...as have had a series of bad experiences which were never concluded satisfactorily. Hopefully somebody here will be able to help me with our latest issue, which when I find the right area I will post the details. Anyway, my name is Nessa and I look forward to chatting with you all - hope that along the way my own experiences will be of help to others.