Thanks Rebel, we are past the complaints stage and are more focused on the legalities of their demands

Thanks Martin, we will be exploring every avenue before deciding which action to take

thanks surfer I suspect that will be the case

Thanks Martin have posted response on site

OK here is the response from UU ! I have omitted personal details for obvious reasons From: United Utilities, Customer Relations Department Sent: 1 February 2011 To: ************** Subject: Your Response from United Utilities: Back dated charges Dear Mr ******** Thank you for taking the time to contact us through our website on 25 January 2011. I am sorry that you have had to contact us regarding your back dated surface water highway drainage charges.I would have liked to have discussed this matter with you today by telephone, unfortunately, when I called you were unavailable, therefore, I am replying to your complaint by email. I understand that it has only recently come to light that we have not been billing you for a service that we have been providing since you first occupied. We have therefore back dated surface water highway drainage charges in line with the Limitation Act 1980. For non-household customers, given that you will have commercial awareness the adjustment period is 6 years in keeping with the Limitation Act (and not to 27 November 2002 when our records show you first occupied). We have sent a bill for £5,921.20 dated 4 November 2010 for surface water highway drainage charges covering the period from 19 April 2004 to 31 March 2011. We are in the position to offer you a discount if you were to pay the bill in full. The maximum amount we can offer is 24 per cent for the charges of £4,708.24 from 19 April 2004 to 31 March 2010. We cannot include charges of £ 1,212.96 for this current financial year (1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011) as back dated charges. The maximum discount we can therefore offer is £1,129.97 (£4, 708.24 x 24 per cent). To qualify for this discount you will need to pay £4,791.23 in full and final settlement (£5,921.20 - £1,129.97). If, you do this then please contact me on 0845 309 3003 and I will arrange for the discount to be authorised by a Senior Manager normally within 10 working days. If you are not in a position to pay in full then I will be willing to set up an extended payment arrangement with Concilia on your behalf. You are entitled to the same amount of time back to repay these charges as it has taken us to bill you. Therefore, we can spread your repayments over a 6 year period. I have placed a temporary hold on your account until 15 February 2011 to allow you time to arrange payment with me. Please therefore disregard any correspondence which crosses with my actions today. So to conclude, I am sure that you appreciate that it is only fair to all our other customers that we bill you for the services that we are providing. I therefore confirm that your surface water highway drainage charges are correct and due for payment. I do fully accept that you have continued to pay for your metered charges and confirm that your only outstanding bill is your most recent of £308.79. This bill is for metered charges billed from 13 October 2010 to 20 January 2011 under account ************. I will finally take the opportunity to assure you that there is no difference in our pricing or policy in respect of Limited or non Limited Companies. I have replied to you in line with Stage 1 of our complaints procedure. If you would like any information about this reply, please call me on 0845 309 3003 (Select Option 2). Our office is open Monday to Friday from 9.00 am to 5.00 pm. Alternatively, If you would prefer to contact us by email please use the ‘Contact Us’ facility on the United Utilities website as the email address this reply is sent from does not accept incoming emails. I trust the information provided will be of assistance to you. For a copy of our complaints procedure, please click on this link http://www.unitedutilities.com/Documents/Our_complaints_procedure.pdf. Yours sincerely ***** **** Case Owner Customer Relations Department

I have sent letters and emails to various departments @ UU and now will await their response before deciding next move Thanks for your continuing interest and support

Only other post code I have is WA5 1AQ United Utilities

WoW how do you do that, it is very detailed !

From what I have learned Concilia are merely an in house debt division and not a legally recognised debt collection agency, the original letter in October notifying us of the arrears and with the apology actually came from the customer care department of United Utilities hence my letter

Martin, thanks we really do appreciate your efforts

The business in question is suffering the worst effects of the recession, it has now reduced operating hours and only opens from 4pm Mon-Fri it has a huge overdraft and is in a long term plan to bring it back to stability and reduced overdraft/overheads so an unexpected bill for almost £6k is without doubt going to be the nail in the coffin. This is simply a damage limitation excercise against a mistake made by a Corporate company that should have show a duty of care and due diligence.

Just need to piece it together like a jigsaw, I understand the corporates use their own in house legal teams to go over every minute detail, We would appreciate any input and other obscure legal jargon we can

United Utilities **** **** **** Your Ref : ******** Date 23rd January 2011 Dear R.G. In response to your original letter dated 14 October 201,1 although we acknowledge your apology for your companies mistake, we are somewhat surprised at the amount of arrears allowed to accrue and the time in which it was allowed to do so. In view of the fact that it is your mistake and that you have apologised we are at a loss to understand the next communication, especially given our excellent account history since 2002 with your company, which is a threatening letter from Concilia demanding immediate payment of £5,921.20, in their words it reads : If you do not respond to this letter IMMEDIATELY we will have no option but to assume you are purposely avoiding repayment of this debt, we will advise our client to take further enforcement action against you. This could result in the issue of a statutory demand that may result in United Utilities issuing a Bankrupcy petition against you OR United Utilities issuing a winding up order against your company. PAYMENT IN FULL IS NOW DUE PLEASE DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE SERIOUSNES OF THIS MATTER Yours faithfully *********** Operations Manager. Due to the serious nature of this situation and the amount of arrears we are taking legal advice on how to deal with the matter. We understand your use of the statute of limitations on debt and the six year clause and are concerned that due diligence in this case has been lacking due to mistakes made by your selves. LIMITATION ACT 19801 (1980 Chapter 58-) An Act to consolidate the Limitation Acts 1939 to 1980 [13 November 1980] PART I ORDINARY TIME LIMITS FOR DIFFERENT CLASSES OF ACTION Time limits under Part I subject to extension or exclusion under Part II 1 Time limits under Part 1 subject to extension or exclusion under Part IIFraud, concealment and mistake 32 Postponement of limitation period in case of fraud, concealment or mistake (1) Subject to subsections (3) and (4A) below, where in the case of any action for which a period of limitation is prescribed by this Act, either-- (a) the action is based upon the fraud of the defendant; or (b) any fact relevant to the plaintiff's right of action has been deliberately concealed from him by the defendant; or © the action is for relief from the consequences of a mistake; 439 the period of limitation shall not begin to run until the plaintiff has discovered the fraud, concealment or mistake (as the case may be) or could with reasonable diligence have discovered it. References in this subsection to the defendant include references to the defendant’s agent and to any person through whom the defendant claims and his agent. (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above, deliberate commission of a breach of duty in circumstances in which it is unlikely to be discovered for some time amounts to deliberate concealment of the facts involved in that breach of duty. (3) Nothing in this section shall enable any action-- (a) to recover, or recover the value of, any property; or (b) to enforce any charge against, or set aside any transaction affecting, any property; to be brought against the purchaser of the property or any person claiming through him in any case where the property has been purchased for valuable consideration by an innocent third party since the fraud or concealment or (as the case may be) the transaction in which the mistake was made took place. (4) A purchaser is an innocent third party for the purposes of this section-- (a) in the case of fraud or concealment of any fact relevant to the plaintiff’s right of action, if he was not a party to the fraud or (as the case may be) to the concealment of that fact and did not at the time of the purchase know or have reason to believe that the fraud or concealment had taken place; and (b) in the case of mistake, if he did not at the time of the purchase know or have reason to believe that the mistake had been made. (4A) Subsection (1) above shall not apply in relation to the time limit prescribed by section 11A(3) of this Act or in relation to that time limit as applied by virtue of section 12(1) of this Act. We are also curious as to the reference to us as a limited company which only started in October 2010, what is the difference between Limited companies and Sole trader, is there a different criteria for the enforcement of arrears ? If there is a cause of action for a Limited Company but not a Sole Trader,then there has to be an arguement that pre October 2010 we were not a Limited company. In view of the fact that pre October 2010 we had no knowledge of this service charge and that you by your own admission first became aware of this on 19 April 2010 we would like the opportunity to question the legality of your demand. Your faithfully ****** ********

I wonder if we can use some of the clauses in the statute of limitations for arrears ( especially the one about due diligence ) along with a request as to why it took so long to inform us of this charge once they became aware of it in April and what is the relevance of it being addressed to the Limited company as opposed to an individual as it always has been since 2002

Ok reading your posts has inspired me to do some digging of my own, I now understand the statute of limitations on debt which appears to be where UU are using the six year clause, however I have come across a statute of limitations for arrears, there are some bits relating to diligence and mistakes, how relevant it is in my case I am not yet sure but there must be stuff out there that can be used in court, as in my opinion UU have a responsibilty to it's shareholders and consumers alike to prevent this sort mistake and in this instance due diligence was not shown. APPENDIX LIMITATION ACT 1980 1 (1980 Chapter 58) An Act to consolidate the Limitation Acts 1939 to 1980 [13 November 1980] PART I ORDINARY TIME LIMITS FOR DIFFERENT CLASSES OF ACTION Time limits under Part I subject to extension or exclusion under Part II 1 Time limits under Part 1 subject to extension or exclusion under Part IIFraud, concealment and mistake 32 Postponement of limitation period in case of fraud, concealment or mistake (1) Subject to subsections (3) and (4A) below, where in the case of any action for which a period of limitation is prescribed by this Act, either-- (a) the action is based upon the fraud of the defendant; or (b) any fact relevant to the plaintiff's right of action has been deliberately concealed from him by the defendant; or © the action is for relief from the consequences of a mistake; 439 the period of limitation shall not begin to run until the plaintiff has discovered the fraud, concealment or mistake (as the case may be) or could with reasonable diligence have discovered it. References in this subsection to the defendant include references to the defendant’s agent and to any person through whom the defendant claims and his agent. (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above, deliberate commission of a breach of duty in circumstances in which it is unlikely to be discovered for some time amounts to deliberate concealment of the facts involved in that breach of duty. (3) Nothing in this section shall enable any action-- (a) to recover, or recover the value of, any property; or (b) to enforce any charge against, or set aside any transaction affecting, any property; to be brought against the purchaser of the property or any person claiming through him in any case where the property has been purchased for valuable consideration by an innocent third party since the fraud or concealment or (as the case may be) the transaction in which the mistake was made took place. (4) A purchaser is an innocent third party for the purposes of this section-- (a) in the case of fraud or concealment of any fact relevant to the plaintiff’s right of action, if he was not a party to the fraud or (as the case may be) to the concealment of that fact and did not at the time of the purchase know or have reason to believe that the fraud or concealment had taken place; and (b) in the case of mistake, if he did not at the time of the purchase know or have reason to believe that the mistake had been made. (4A) Subsection (1) above shall not apply in relation to the time limit prescribed by section 11A(3) of this Act or in relation to that time limit as applied by virtue of section 12(1) of this Act. (5) Sections 14A and 14B of this Act shall not apply to any action to which subsection

Can anyone shed any light on the comment by DX "i should think they have to abide by the industry guidelines like other suppliers have to - if they have not billed you for such in the last 12mts, then they can only go back 12mts with this type of things".

If any one can assist we need help in clarifying: The legality of the arrears claim, can they go back six years and are we legally obliged to pay immediately The uncertainties surrounding the timing of them becoming aware and the delay of sending the request APRIL - OCTOBER and the change over from sole trader to LTD company in October,Did they only send the demand once we became a LTD company and if so why would this benefit them? The 12 month ruling with regards to arrears as mentioned on this thread, Can they bankrupt or issue a winding up order as threatened, How best to get this into a courtroom without incurring massive legal charges, As they have accepted it was their mistake for not informing us that we would be liable for this service and apologised accordingly, do they have to take some responsibility for this

Some of the points mentioned have raised concerns, one of which is the status change, it became LTD in October when we aquired another business. It was not until October that we recieved our first letter ! is this a coincidence ?

I would be surprised if the bank would lend money to pay arrears ?

As I have said before we are prepared for them to take us to court, worst case scenario is if they are fully entitled then we will offer their letter of apology admitting their mistake and request that we be given the same time frame to rectify their mistake

There is no dispute on our part with regards to these charges, only that the way in which they have been implemented. and to the legality of their demands To charge six years arrears, apologise for their mistake and then threaten to wind up the family business unless we pay immediately, in these delicate times for small business It just does not make sense

This has since been followed up by a FINAL DEMAND letter from Concilia

Date14 october 2010 Our ref ******************* Dear Sir/Madam Customer Account Number ********** I am writing following an audit of our billing records for your property. When you moved into your property on 27 November 2002 we should have billed you for surface water and drainage highway charges. Please accept my apologies for this not happening. Surface water drainage covers the removal and treatment of surface water ( rainwater ) from your property. This includes water that drains from roofs and other hard standing surfaces.. Removing this water helps to protect your property from damage and flooding. The highways drainage charge recovers our costs in disposing of rainwater entering our public sewers from roads throughout the region. It does not relate specifically to the roads in your locality. As everyone uses roads, we feel that the provision of highways drainage is of benefit to the community generally. Because of this we require all customers who are connected to the public sewer to contribute to the cost of providing this service. I have created a new account to base these charges on, however this has only been done six years back from the date we have first been made aware of this. Our records show this to be 19 April 2010 therefore your new surface water highways drainage account is effective from 19 April 2004. These charges are based on the rateable value of the property which was given to the property by the Valuation Office in 1990. The rateable value of your property is 1305 whichh I have used to calculate your charges. From 1 April 2008, we began phasing in a site area charge. We did this by using 2/3rd of your rateable value and 1/3rd of your site area for the 2008/2009 period, and then 1/3rd rateable value and 2/3rd site area for 2009/2010. From 1 April 2010 your charges are based fully upon site area. The site area charges are based on the drained area occupied by your property. This is calculated by measuring the non-permeable sufaces from which surface water or groundwater drains directly or indirectly to a public sewer. The area of your site measures between 650m2 to 1,499m2, which means that a charging band of 4 has been allocated for charging purposes. Please find attached a financial breakdown which shows how I have calculated these charges from 19 April 2004. We will send a revised invoice for this within the next ten working days. If you would like anymore help, or information, please contact us on 0845 746 2255 or email: ****** we will be happy to help you. Yours Faithfully R G Customer Advisor Outstanding Balance £5,921.20

I agree thank you. This is causing stress within the family and we thoroughly appreciate everyones input, we would like to put together a fact based and strong worded letter to UU to delay any action so we can formulate a plan of action on how best to approach the situation. The limited company has only recently been set up and was not in existence pre 2010 the business has always been registered as sole trader if this makes any difference

Does anyone know of any sites on facebook or twitter that I can highlight our situation also any good journalist that may be interested in putting together a news report as I suspect there are many thousands out there with the same problem and no knowledge of how to deal with it