Ok she's had her appeal, she turned up to it alone while I waited across the road with a coffee. When she got in there they asked if her partner had come up with her, she replied yes and they said 'well hes welcome to sit in'. She came over and told me, and after debating about it for a few minutes we decided I would sit in. So I was present as her 'witness' during the appeal. We recorded the whole thing. They have acknowledged that the procedure in the store was innapropriate, not just my partners actions. They are now honing in on the fact that the 'normal' innapropriate procedure was to put it in the office but she put it in her locker- to which there is "a world of difference" apparently. Her defence was that it was for safekeeping until the next morning to give to the manager when he was in, as it was £35, a fairly large amount. To the point of a lack of investigation before holding her disciplinary, they said "how do you know we didnt". She knows because the 2 staff members who originally interviewed her (the guilty manager and the district manager) were in the office while she sat outside after her questioning. She was only sat there for 30 mins so I dont think that can possibly qualify as a full investigation. They have now said that they will be investigating by questioning all the members of staff implicated/involved, and getting back to her within 10 days. So they said there had been a full investigation, but they would now be doing one (?!) I have the recording, and would be willing to share it with you Elpulpo if you would care to, as I believe there are things in there you may pick up on as being unsound. I would appreciate it if you do have the time. Thankyou, B PS I was totally unprepared for being taken in, I had no idea that would happen.

One more thing- it seems from what I have read that the penalty to the employer for unlawful deduction of wages is that they must pay the employee the amount they are due. That is absolutely disgusting, they should be fined on top of it- it's tantamount to theft. End rant...

Thanks Elpulpo, I did google it for ages however found little of relevance. I'll be speaking to them Monday about the pay issues and she has her quasi-appeal tomorrow, so will let you know of any developments. Hope you have a good weekend, B

Exactly- so how have they deemed it right to say that as she was no longer employed after the 3rd week, that the amount she would have earned in the 4th week will be charged to her as undertime, and subtracted from the 3 weeks she did? They are literally subtracting the last week of the month, after she was sacked, from the first 3 weeks wage she earnt- effectively making it 2 weeks wage for 3. Have you ever heard of an undertime clause in a contract, or heard of one being used in this way? Just does not make sense to me- Im sure they are just trying to rob her blind

Sorry for bumping just hoping someone knows whether they can do the above legally... Seems absurd to me- sack her 3 weeks into the month then claim she owes them money for not working the 4th week- in which she was not even employed by them!

This sounds almost exactly like my partners situation- in her case the money in the tills was balanced between them via a pot in the managers office. The district manager found out and dismissed my partner- the main difference with her case is they did not investigate the managers involvement nor the other supervisors. She has an appeal tomorrow. Sorry I cant be of any help but it sounds like my partners case is quite similiar...

Right this is just getting more messed up as I work it out further... She was contracted to 173 hours in Dec-she worked 143 up to the point of dismissal (including paid suspension), however the company has an 'undertime' policy of subtracting the amount of hours under your contract that you didnt do, from your total pay. Odd I know- legal I'm not actually sure. Anyway they have subtracted the 30 hours remaining in the month that she was due to work but didnt because she was dismissed, away from the holiday pay she's received for unclaimed holiday! Therefore for 8 days holiday pay she received £227, rather than £480. (£480-30x£7.50+ about £25 in some random payment for anchor hours whatever they are)(£7.50 was her hourly rate) Surely thats not legal! Even if it is part of her contract it isnt undertime if she isnt even employed anymore...

She started working there before I was living with her so I wouldnt know for sure, she has no recollection of receiving one. I think she probably did tbh, but has misplaced it (I know, I know...). Her contract has changed drastically since then though, her hours went up, as did her pay, and official title (from sales assistant to duty manager), should she have been issued a new one?

In the 'personnel policies', the closest thing to a contract we have, there is nothing of notice periods.

There's no mention on her dismissal letter of summary dismissal or gross misconduct- if it helps her disciplinary was the 21st of Dec and that was her last day of service apparently, the letter says: "It is decided that your conduct was still unsatisfactory and that you be dismissed- The company does not require you to work your contractual notice period. You will therefore receive payment in lieu of that notice, days already worked [etc..]" It's actually an ACAS template letter from Acas - Appendix 3 - Sample letters Mutilated a bit-but definitely from there. So they do know that ACAS exist If summary dismissal and gross misconduct are terms that have not been mentioned, and she is (supposedly) receiving PILON, then I guess it can't be GM... can it?

Well they were typically crap on the phone, I asked what the purpose of the meeting was so she can prepare and was told- "didnt she want a meeting" I said "well she wanted an appeal hearing" Her: "yes well it will be her appeal against the decision made [she didnt say which decision here]" Me: "Ok well I believe you have her written statement of appeal, what further information do you require?" Her: "I dont know exactly I imagine it will be all about that" Me: "All about that? Can you be more specific?" Her: "No, Mrs T (appeal-hearer) is not here until next week- we rescheduled this a few times didnt we?" Me: "Her appeal was rescheduled once, will Mrs T be present at this meeting?" Her: "Yes, it will just be Mrs T and Mrs Unfairly-Dismissed at the meeting, and obviously I dont know if theyll bring in a witness or whatever [she didnt say who might bring in a witness]" Me: "Ok. Thankyou. Bye" Her: "Bye" So it was pointless calling them really they didnt say what questions they wanted to ask- I recorded it just for the sake of it though. Back to the topic of the PILON quickly, I requested (and have received) a copy of her leavers pay breakdown. All she received was 8 days holiday pay that she had left to claim. No PILON, not even 1 week as they said. I believe we should be making an informal request now for the remainder of her entitlement, then proceeding with an unlawful deduction of wages claim- is that right? Thankyou

Thanks! Guess I'll call them now then- I'll let you know what they say....

Well I have spoken to ACAS this morn, they recommended calling the company to confirm if it is part of the appeal process and hence covered by ACAS guidelines, and to ask what exactly will be discussed-the purpose of the meeting. Im not sure thats the right thing to do though, seeing as she doesnt have a representative available now, we cant afford a solicitor, and dont have a legal aid one available I am inclined to think maybe we should only call and ask what is to be discussed at this meeting-but not whether it is covered by ACAS guidelines. Then as she has not been informed that it is (covered), and will consequently turn up with no rep, it may work in her favour that she was not informed should the outcome be undesirable. Confirming that it is covered by ACAS guidelines is just correcting their mistakes for them surely? Whatever happens she will be recording it covertly.

Sorry to deviate from the original topic, but I have a question regarding her PILON. She has been given 1 weeks PILON, and they are insisting that is all she is due. I have read from the .gov website that the statutory notice period is 1 week for each complete year. Doesnt that mean she should be due 6 weeks PILON (as she has worked there for 6 years), is that correct? Thankyou...

I was thinking that could be their reason for holding it; so come tribunal they could say they have held an appeal hearing. However they have not stated that it is an appeal hearing, and they have not informed her of her right to be accompanied to this meeting. They have stated it is to 'discuss her appeal'- not to make it. It seems odd to me, although admittedly I have little experience of these situations!