Hi, Yes, I am Jazz's carer, registered as such with our health authority and recognised as her representative with some other financial matters (still stuff to sort out there). The DDs are cancelled, so I'll just sit back and wait. Thanks again

Hi, Another case of not being able to cancel gym membership with Ashbourne. My daughter signed up both of us with Clifford gym in Nottingham. The only reason I agreed to join was to make it possible for my daughter to attend. She was to pay for both memberships. The offer was to sign up for a 12 month contract, with the first two months free. Before we had any chance to use the gym, my daughter's mental health deteriorated. She was absent from work for some weeks and then dismissed. We contacted Ashbourne and asked that they revoke the membership. They asked for medical evidence, which I provided. I told them that as I only joined to facilitate her attendance and be her carer that I wanted my membership revoked too. Needless to say, they are refusing to revoke my membership. They have revoked my daughter's Several emails back and forth with no joy. Yesterday I asked for a copy of the contract, so I could try to find another get - out clause. They replied to say that they wouldn't be supplying a copy as I should have printed it off when I joined. I wrote back and said that if they didn't have evidence of a contract signed by me, then, as far as I was concerned we had no contractual relationship and, therefore, nothing to cancel They've now said that the only way I can get rid of the contract is to pass it to someone else. What do I do now? They have no record of my bank details as it was all done in my daughter's name.

Bumpety bump.

I've blended two of the letters together, how does this read.... "Thank you for your letter of XXXXXX, the contents of which have been noted. You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account. On xxxx I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the xxxxxx. You have failed to comply with my request (see below), and as such the account entered default on xxxxxx (12+2 days after I made the initial request). The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account. The document you supplied with your letter of xxxxx did not meet these terms, the agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and would therefore only be enforceable by a court under s65. However, the absence of any prescribed terms means that a court would be prevented from enforcing it under s127 (3). You are no doubt aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation. This limit has expired. Section 78(6) states: If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1) (a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement. Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law, as you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or Unfair Methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8 (i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued' (k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt' Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment. I am granting to you a further 21 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above account is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. After this period you should close the file and cease processing and personal data relating to me on this matter. Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 21 days I shall expect that this to mean you agree to remove all such data. Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies. * You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. * You may not add further interest or any charges to the account. * You may not pass the account to a third party. * You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency. * You may not issue a default notice related to the account. I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 21 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter, which is now a formal complaint. I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter. I look forward to hearing from you in writing."

So, this is (hopefully) what I received from capquest in response to my CCA request. What do you think?

As my first post shows I CCA'd CapQuest at the end of October, yesterday I finally received.... a copy of an application form! There is some small print at the bottom that seems to refer to the Consumer Credit Act, but the copy is illegible. I signed the application on 3/10/2000 yet it was accepted by the bank on 11/09/2000. There is nothing visible (as well as being illegible the small print has been cut off at the very bottom) regarding any T&Cs, interest rates or anything to do with how/when the debt should be paid. I'll scan it up later, but I don't see how this form covers any of the required terms.

Thanks Cerberusalert. I'll replace the payment plan forthwith.

Bump.

Does anyone else have any opinions on whether the application form is an agreement and if so, whether it meets the terms to the Act? Thanks in advance. W

I was beaten to the answer! Hi Soozie, Good luck with your case, this is only one of my first goes at fending off the DCAs and it looks like it might not be too successful at this point! Nevertheless, if the CCA is enforceable, at least I know where I stand. Go for it and start a thread for it so that the more knowedgable CAGgers can give you all the help you need, I'm a novice! There is lots of reading to be done and a library of resources to help you too. BB there are at least some of the terms and conditions about halfway down on the right hand side, they consistently refer to the T&Cs overleaf, which I didn't receive. I was sent the current T&Cs made out in my current name and address. Although the form is headed up as an application form, and refers to itself as such throughout the body of the form, it is signed by both myself and the bank. My signature pre-dates that of the banks. My signature is clearly then, related to my applying to be considered for the card, not in confirming and credit agreement which has been accepted. Therefore, could it be argued that it is merely an application form and not a Credit Agreement? Am I perhaps clutching at straws. Like I said earlier in the thread, I am pretty astounded that Cabot were able to obtain this much from the OC since the application is almost 20 years old!

Bump

Time for a SAR? The papers I received from the CCA request to Cabot, were the Agreement/Application posted above, current terms & conditions (not those referred to in the form), a statement covering the period July 06 - November 09 and an 'invitation' to pay. If I do a SAR, best to Cabot or the OC?

Thanks VJohn, the explanation is appreciated

Not statute barred, I've been paying Cabot (and the other CRAs it was bounced to) up until November last year. VJohn, can I ask why you believe it to be enforceable? I need to understand, I was under the impression that without the terms and conditions (referred to as being overleaf on the application form) the document was not enforceable. The terms and conditions I received were not those 'overleaf' but were the current terms and conditions. Thanks for your comments so far people. It all helps. PS I also received a statement with the papers which shows that despite making regular (albeit small) payments, the balance has not reduced by even one penny.

Today I rec'd my 'credit agreement' from Crapbot, I'm both impressed and somewhat disappointed that the OC (BoS) had the paperwork from 20 years ago. I've scanned in the first page of the impressive pile of papers I've received, which is the Application form I completed way back in 1990. My question is, obviously, is it enforceable? From the little I've learned from these forums, I don't believe it is. The form is headed Application form and is referred to as the same within the body of the form. Although the form is signed by both myself and the bank, it doesn't appear to be a 'four corners' document. There is reference to 'Terms of the agreement as set out over leaf.' The rest of the pile of papers is not the overleaf as mentioned. The application form is in my name at the time of application and the address at which I was living. The terms & conditions which accompanied it are in my current name and current address. May I have your thoughts please CAGgers?

The best advice is to talk to them. Avoid doing it by phone if at all possible, face to face is preferable so that you can have paperwork available for both parties to see and discuss. Make sure you have relevant numbers to hand, such as NI and any reference numbers for child benefit/CTC/WFTC etc that may be applicable. If your OH has wage slips for the relevant period that will also help. HMRC are not garden variety DCAs, they do have powers to distrain on your goods (they will attend with a bailiff). They also have powers of entry that, in some circumstances, are more than that of the police. Don't forget that bailiffs can distrain on anything they can see, so keep the curtains closed as well as keeping the windows shut. Whatever you do, don't ignore them.

Result! A reply from RBS this morning "We regret to advise that the loan agreement has been misfiled and despite searching our records we have been unable to locate it. Our record of the setting up of the loan has insufficient detail to enable us to recreate the agreement with the required degree of certainty this course of action requires. (I wouldn't sign my requests, I wonder if that stymied their recreation too?) In the circumstances we appreciate that under section 77(4) of the CCA if you decide not to meet your obligations under the loan as they fall due we will be unable to take steps to enforce repayment of the loan. However we consider that you should continue to meet your obligations under the agreement bearing in mind that the agreement isn't void, (that's the agreement that you don't have then, is it?) it remains valid and your continuing default will be reported to the credit reference agencies..." Merry Christmas Wendella Love RBS.....

I am and they are, for the CCA and the SAR. I've sent the letter you suggested, and a further one after that for the CCA, the SAR has had only two letters from me. I'll sort out another then, tell them I'll pick up all the papers from the bank and tell them that copies are winging their way to the relevant authorities. At least, I will do when my pc is working again, please, God, don't let my hard-drive, with all those copy letters on be dead.....

RBS are really trying my patience now. I have CCAd a DCA who are acting for them and also SARd the bank for the full story of what has happened to the loan over the years (I recently discovered that the ex rescheduled the loan shortly before going bankrupt, for instance). My CCA to Triton has been replied to by RBS and Nat West, but not yet by Triton, each refusing to comply with the CCA without a signature. I wrote to them last week saying I'd pick everything up from the bank. Not surprisingly, I've heard nothing. No worries, I've stopped any payments that were heading their way! RBS are being just as difficult with the SAR request, while I know I will just write to them and tell them to stop messing about and present everything to the local branch, I'm really frustrated by their unhelpful response and the hiding behind the DPA as it suits them. Any suggestions as to how I can ease my frustration and stick it to them? Metaphorically speaking, of course!

Another letter from them this morning, unable to locate the CCA so all collection activity ceased. I expected more excuses and time wasting from them. Too early to call it a good result though as they said they will continue to pursue the CCA from the OC. I'll wait and see what happens but at least I'm a tenner better off next month if nothing else!

I'm a bit further north than that, but I'd like to come out to play too.

Sounds like rubbish to me. It used to be an offence if a CCA request was not honoured after 12+2+30, but that changed in 2006, I believe. The absence of a valid CCA does not write-off a debt, it merely makes the debt unenforceable at law. The debt is still there, should by some miracle a complete CCA appear in the future, then the debt becomes fully enforceable unless it has already become statute barred. Don't go near them is my advice.

"Thank you for your letter dated 12/11/2009 in which you again say that you will not comply with my request dated 2/11/09 under s.77/78(1) of the `Consumer Credit Act 1974 unless I provide you with a signature. There is no requirement under the Act for a s.77/78(1) request to be accompanied by a signature, and I am unable to accede to your request. Further, I note that you have sent statements and correspondence containing sensitive private information to me at the same address as that detailed in my s.77/78(1) request. If you are concerned whether you are corresponding with the correct person, I wonder why you have not verified the information before? As you are aware, disclosing data without adequate checks of identity is contrary to the 7th principal of data protection, listed in schedule 1 of the Data Protection Act 1998. The time to confirm my identity was before you sent your first letter, or attempted to contact me by telephone. My request for a true copy of my credit agreement under section 78(1) was made on 02/11/2009 and the 12(+2) working days for your compliance expire on 20/11/2009. I note that there is no provision that removes the requirements of the act to provide this information on time, even if you are unsure of my identity. I therefore inform you that this account is now in dispute. However, in order to facilitate my request and also ensure that you remain within your obligations to the Act, please deliver the information requested to my local branch of RBS at XX XXXXX XX, XXXXXX XXXXX XXX XXX I will attend at the branch to collect the paperwork and will provide adequate confirmation of my identity. If you choose to refuse this request, I will have no option but to put the account into serious dispute and report your non-compliance with my reasonable request to the relevant authorities. I note, once again, that despite my requests being properly made to Triton Credit Services, I have yet to receive a reply directly from you. Do you own the alleged account or not? Am I incorrect in addressing this query to you? Please now comply with your legal obligation without further delay. I once again enclose the postal order (No. xxxxxx8) in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee and again remind you that it is to be used for no other purpose. I also enclose further copies of my original letters. Yours faithfully" Does that look OK? Reasonable, but also don't-mess-with-me-or-I'll-prod-some-serious-buttock?

CCAd Cabot on 10/11/09 and have had the standard response, we don't have it blah blah, will get it from the OC blah, blah. Points to note however were the bit where they stated that they didn't feel it necessary to charge for this type of request, so they returned the PO accordingly and the bit where they state that my phone number has been temporarily removed from their records but "if we do not continue to receive your co-operation in paying toward your outstanding balance, once the requested information has been provided, we shall reserve the right to re-instate telephone contact." That sounds like a threat to me, isn't that a bit naughty of them?

Triton/RBS are most definitely extracting the urine now, second reply recieved today (this time from RBS, still not a direct reply from Triton), again refusing to disclose any information without a signature and I quote "the Bank is obliged [to] follow guidelines set out by the Data Protection Act 1998. One of the principles of the above Act is that any data held is secure, by disclosing any information to you without being confident that you are the account holder, the Bank would be in breach of the Act. Due to the nature of your request we cannot provide loan documentation without confirming your identity." The account will be formally in dispute on Friday, the clock keeps ticking whether they play silly devils or not, yes? What do you recommend fellow Caggers?