A couple of questions re Co-Operative Bank credit card. Brief background summary I have a credit card with the Co-Op with an outstanding balance of around £16k. This account has been in dispute with Co-Op since early 2009 and as far as I am concerned is caught up with an unlawful rescission and they did not meet my S.78 requests. They should not have continued to apply interest to the balance and this was the case during 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 but I can see from my latest Experian credit file enquiry that the Co-Op still have the account in their name rather than any Debt Collectors and they are now showing the default balance increased by just over £1k in January 2013, I assume as additional interest and penalties. I have not been advised of any new charges being applied or any update from Co-Op on the status of my account. I have previously back in 2010 put my point across re the S.78 and unlawful rescission. I have also requested copies of my signed agreement for the card but the Co-Op were unable to provide anything only an application form (so therefore my understanding is they can’t enforce anything through the courts). Previous letters from them state; "The bank acknowledges that none of the Termination Notices served were in fact effective in terminating the Agreement, as the requisite time period was not afforded to you to rectify the default. As such your account was terminated incorrectly. I appologise for the inconvenience and confusion this must have caused" They then goes on to say; "The effect of the incorrectly served notices is that the bank cannot enforce the debt against you although it is still entitled to take certain recovery action, including the issue of court proceedings during the period of default" My thoughts are therefore they have (without the agreement) ‘gifted’ me the money and can only ask for it back. The debt is unenforceable, without an agreement a court is prohibited from making a judgement. Also, if they had a watertight case against me for that kind of value then they would have taken me to court by now rather than letting it sit there. Questions 1) I am looking to let this sit until the statute bar date (6 years) which by my calculations should be in 2016 but on my Experian report Co-Op have changed the default date to show January 2013 when I have been in default since 2010. How do I get the Experian report to show 2010 2) The amount shown on the Experian report is incorrect as how can the Co-Op prove how they have calculated the balance with no agreement and having not applied any charges or interest during 2011-2013? 3) Should I try and get these point corrected or leave until the statute bar date is past (i.e. by my calculation i.e, in 2016 rather than theirs – i.e. 6 years from January 2013) and then tackle it? Thank you, Fred

Yes, I agree hold fire. I am in the same situation. I plan to wait to see something more than computer generated standard letters. I dont want to open up any dialogue with these guys as I belive its all phishing at the moment to see who is going to reply to us so we can hassle them.

Also in your post above you mentioned I now have CONTRACT with the Debt Purchaser when I only had an AGREEMENT with the original Credit Card company?

Thanks for your reply! Well I suppose if you ask the question then the reply may not be what you want to hear. I note what you are saying re charging orders, Court Jdgements etc.. but surely if they had a 'water tight' case against me then I ask myself why haven't they taken me to court, why hasn't one of the 4 DCA's taken me to Court, why sell the Debt on (for what 10% max?) to this new company? This has been going on for 4 years now and I have dealt with 4 DCA's and the original Credit Card company couldn't produce a copy of my original Agreement. They couldnt even knock one up to show what it would have looked like - proberbly as all I remember was one of those tick box style return slips. I do appreciate your reply and comments though, so please don't think I don't. Thanks,

I did a search to see if this has been debated before but couldnt find anything - unless its tied up with ongoing threads that have been going a while and a thread started has moved on with later posts discussing this? Thanks,

Dear All, I have an outstanding balance on a credit card (approx. £11k and nearly 4 years old) and have received a letter saying in a round about way that the debt has now been sold on to another company. The main sentance/wording of the letter I received from these new owners goes:- "... we have had assigned to us all right, title, interest and benefit in the debts due in relation to the account ....." I don’t think it matters which credit card company it is or which DCAs have been hassling me for the last 4 years, I am interested as ageneral point that I now believe that as the account has been sold on from the original credit card company to a new company that as I have no contract with this new owner of the alleged debt I therefore don’t owe this new company a penny. As the original credit company has been paid for my account then I don’t owe them now either? I intend to simply ignore any further letters etc. fromthese new owners of the original debt as they have in effect kindly settled the account. I never asked them to do this therefore I intend to simply hold tight and not send any letters or make any other communications with this 'new owner'as I really don’t want to open up any new lines of communication with these people or see that it is my problem to go back to the original credit card company. Would others on this forum take this stance also? Thanks,

Brig, the CRA that I currently use to keep a check on has all the Credit Cards that I have (and wish to keep an eye on) then is that not sufficient? I would have thought that if the credit card companies send information to say 2 of the 3 CRA's or even all 3 CRA's then they surely have to send the same information? Else, do they update the ones they use with sometimes different information - surely not!!? Thanks,

Thanks Brig and Natalie for taking the time to post here.I think I will look at checking the other two CRA's that I dont currently look at.If it (i,e the debt) does pop up again it will be interesting to see who it is and if I receive any letters or phone calls about it. Thanks,

Hi Brig, thanks for your input. Debt sold on sounds like that could be the answerhere. Not sure if that would be good news or not!? I have signed up one of the main CRA's but hadn't thought about regularly looking at other CRA's to see what they have on file for my credit history. Is it worth checkin the other CRA's as I have always thought that if I keep an eye on one that would be enough?Thanks,

Hi. Just a quick question that I would be grateful for someone to offer some thoughts on. I have had an ongoing disput with one of the big credit card companies which reached a stale mate position several months ago and I have heard nothing since. It is not over 6 years old (about 3 years old) so not statute barred. I have over the last few months been pulling off my credit file from one of the main CRA's and the credit card debt has just sat there no change. I called up my credit file this month and the entry has now gone - no mention or record at? The numbering of the entries for other credit cards etc,. also shows that this one has gone as the numbering has changed. My question is - has this debt now 'gone away'? It is strange as it is not over 6 years old that it has now gone, yet other credit cards I have had and settle/closed a long time ago still sit there. Any thoughts anyone? Thanks,

Hi Stigman and Cecil, thank you both very much for your comments regarding my questions on this thread. I appreciate your input. My original SAR only produced an application form for this credit card (which was opened way back early 1990's). I have had the usual letters pointing out that as I have used the card and spent the credit avaialble had previously paid my monthly statement on time etc.. that I have clearly shown that I have obviously accepted the terms and conditions etc... etc.. and therefore the agreement is valid and I should pay up. Does anyone have a view point on credit card companies taking this kind of line trying to justify/convince you that you have an obligation now to pay based on this argument (although we dont have the correct paperwork to take you to Court if you dont pay)? It looks to me that from what I allready know and from trawling around on the various threads here on CAG and reading both your comments that it looks like the Co-Op havent got much to go on and proberbly know they cant do much against me as they dont have a clear CCA (only an application form) with none of the prescribed terms and they also must know that they messed up the default and termination notices. They tried via their inhouse legal dept to "tidy up" the error on the default and termination trying to put the original error down to some admin/computer mix up. Their last letter from their inhouse legal dept (solicitior M Broadhead) says (quote): "The bank acknowledges that none of the Termination Notices served were in fact effective in terminating the Agreement, as the requisite time period was not afforded to you to rectify the default. As such your account was terminated incorrectly. I appologise for the inconvenience and confusion this must have caused" He then goes on to say in his letter: "The effect of the incorrectly served notices is that the bank cannot enforce the debt against you although it is still entitled to take certain recovery action, including the issue of court proceedings during the period of default" Their angle on this after several confusing paragraphs is that they believe that I have not suffered any detriment as a result of the dfault & termination errror. Basically they seem to be saying as its a few days and that they re terminated the agreement with the correct number of days a few months later that this has put things right. So why confirm (in the quote above) that they cant enforce the debt? I think they are happy now to continue trashing my credit file and wait untill I need to raise some credit with someone else in the future to realise how much damage this will have done. I take the point that maybe I should leave things as they are and not stir things up anymore by doing another SAR? But, Should I go for it and get them to stop trashing my credit file and get them to write the account off? When I say go for it I am worried that it could pop up again or maybe they try some kind of reconstruction to provide a "valid" CCA (using the 'Carey' judgement) and try their luck again at a later date. Any advice? Thanks,

Hi, I have an issue with the Co-Operative bank and a credit card account that I have with them. Firstly I have evidence that they have issued incorrect default notices and termination notice as the required numbers of days was not correctly given. I have pointed this fact out to them and they issued revised default notices and a second termination notice (this time allowing the correct number of days). I have rejected their reissuing of the default notice and again pointed out their original error. I obviously kept copies of all their letters. As a matter of interest the account has not been passed to any debt collectors or solicitors. Amount outstanding is over £9k and this has been terminated (originally) in May 2010 after arguing about the lack of them being able to provide an form of valid credit agreement since January 2009. It has now been a number of months since I have heard from them and all I get now each month is a credit card statement which shows another months interest calculation and £12 charge for being overlimit and £12 for late payment default. Interestingly I also get their regular updates on changes to the terms and conditions of the credit card and a bit of junk mail with special offers on things like Co-Operative Insurance etc... I also note on my credit file with Experian that they continue to record defaults on my not paying anything and being in arreas etc. . I am sure their tactic is if they cant collect on the account then leave it and simply trash my credit file with defaults etc.. If they had a strong case to collect or take me to court then why havent they done so? My questions are if they have Terminated my credit card account then: 1. Should they still be applying interest and penalty charges? 2. Should they still be recording my default each month with Experian etc..? 3. Should they still be using my data to send me junk mail/mail shots and account updates? 4. Can a credit card account be terminated twice? Any advice or comments welcome. Thanks,

Hi PGH7447, yes I am going to make them an offer as a full and final on the back of going in hard on the other points raised above. Thanks,

Hi, just looking back over my papers (notices received) the actual arrears quoted is actually only about £600. The £3,000 mentioned above is what they are seeking as their minimum payment required as per their statements. Thanks,

Thanks for your input JSA12 - useful link to a summary of Judge Waksman in the 'Carey v HSBC' case from your link. By the way the bank I am refering to in my postings is not HSBC). I think the bank that have sent me the letter would proberbly try and argue that the incorrect Termination letter sent to me (not allowing 14 days notice) was an administrative error - to which they have now months later tried to 'correct' by reissuing and sending along with an apology and a £700 credit to my account as a goodwill gesture. The couple of lines in the letetr offering apologies and financial recompense of £700 then quickly turns into several nasty paragraphs of here is a reconstituted copy of your agreement (as we are relying on the Carey v HSBC case) and demands to pay up imediately the balance they say is owing (with a ps. by the way weve trashed your credit rating - although we wont admit that in writing).

Thanks 'Rebel11' I will take another look at this - although I have dipped in and out of the case since the details were first made public. I agree with you 'DonkeyB' my understanding is Carey V HSBC covers the point on reconstituted Agreements to satisfy S.78 requests and provide acceptable evidence in Court as to enforceability of Credit Card agreements. Also agree and now question (hence the thread title) if some credit card companies are using Carey V HSBC to convince consumers that this includes letters (default/termination letters etc..) as well as credit card agreements. Maybe I should send them a photo showing the pile of cash (reconstituted) that I used to pay everything off months ago!! Thanks,

Hi DonkeyB, thank you for your interest and very helpful postings on this thread. 'Arrears' wise it is about £3k as I have been arguing with the bank about this for well over a year now. This amount includes penalty charges for being over credit limit and for late payment fees in addition to accrued interest. Also to note that as mentioned in my first post the bank have credited £700 or so as a "gesture of goodwill" I am hoping that my worst case is just the arears they can go after me for? I will PM Vince and Andy with a link to this thread. I have received help from Vince before - he even offered to send me an empty Cornflake box once! (private joke!). I am now looking to piece together some 'quality' lines in a reply letter to the bank - should I appeal to their 'good nature' and ask that they consider writing off this account or do I make an offer as a full and final settlement or do I go heavy making threats if they dont tidy things up pretty dam quick? Either way I am in need of a few choice words and case law to beef up my reply. I think your references to the Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co and the Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society cases are a good start point. I shall research these tonight to read over the detail. Thanks,

Thank you DonkeyB for your reply and links to other CAG threads which I have read with interest. One further point to add is that there appears to be a point as to whether I should reply in writing to the bank and agree (is 'agree' the right word?) that the credit card is now terminated (i.e. by the first Termination letter from the bank) and that I should then argue my points thereafter. It is interesting re reading the letter from the bank after reading your reply and reading the thread links that I note in my letter that the bank (I quote here) "appologise for the inconvenience and confusion this may have caused" after their acknowledgement that the Termination letter was incorrectly served by not giving me 14 days requisite notice. Interestingly the bank further go on to to state (I quote here) "The effect of the incorrectly served notices is that the Bank cannot enforce the debt against you (although it is still entitled to take certain recovery action, including the issue of court proceedings during the period of default)" This is one of many lines in the banks 4 page letter that dosn't make sense. I am thinking here that they are deliberately pading out a letter that looks like I dont have a case or a leg to stand on and they want me to believe that I must bow to their demands for full immediate repayment and that they have done nothing wrong here? The outstanding balance on this account is about £20k so I need to make sure that my plan of attack and letters used in my replies really are spot on. Thanks,

Hi all, I have an important point that I need to clarify regarding the Carey V HSBC case. I have received a letter regarding a credit card account that I have with one of the banks. In the letter they are (after months of hearing nothing) responding via their in house legal dept to my unhappiness regarding the way that my credit card account had been cancelled. In summary they issued me with a Default Notice and then a couple of days latter (i.e. not allowing the 14days notice that I thought I was entitled to?) issued me with a Termination Notice. I pointed this error out and said that this failure to give me 14 days had not allowed me the time to put things right etc... They have now said via their legal dept that they have made an error and seeing as my account was not put right or any payments made etc.. that they can now rely on letters that were sent later that did give the correct notice period. Interesting point is that the letters they now wish to rely on I have never received and my Subject Access Request did not show these ‘new’ letters as existing. The bank are now saying that they can reconstitute letters that I should have received (they admit they can't provide originals) using the Carey V HSBC 2010 case. Is this correct that this case can not only be used to reconstitute Credit Card Agreements that can stand up in Court but also Default Notices and Termination letters? Do I have much of case/argument to go back to them and say that they have acted incorrectly. Interesting point is can the bank terminate my credit card then months later issue a default notice on an account already terminated and then terminate it again! The bank have admitted this error in their letter and have even credited back my account with several hundred pounds as a gesture of goodwill. In the same letter they have said that my Credit file has not been damaged – yet I can see via a Credit check at Experian that they have posted defaults etc.. showing that the account has not been kept up to date. This has affected my credit rating. I also receive each month credit card statements showing continued Interest being charged and default charges and over limit charges also being applied. Do I also have potentially a case against the bank with regard to them updating my credit file each month with defaults on an account that has been incorrectly terminated? I am also of the opinion that this error leaves the account in limbo and that they would not wish to try and bring this before the Courts. I would like to use the above to negotiate a full and final settlement/compromise agreement. I have searched here on the CAG forum but couldn’t find any postings that cover this point? Any help in clarifying the position that I am in with reference back to relevant sections in the Consumer Credit Act etc.. gratefully received. Many thanks,

Thanks for posting 'La serenissima'. I have written to FOS and have had an acknowledgement / receipt letter. I have also this week had a letter saying my case has now been asigned to be further investigated. Northern Rock have been sent details of my complaint to see what they have to say to the FOS. I am sticking with this one and hope I can get something in my favour. I am happy to share/compare notes (keeping personal details etc,, private) if that helps. Thanks,

Complaint now sent to FOS. Thanks,

Here is a link to the Financial Ombudsman Service Complaints - 'How to Complain' http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumer/complaints.htm The complaint form obviously has boxes for all the details the FOS require but it lacks questions and space to reply to get all the details out and onto the form. I am going to draft the details of my claim and attach to the claim form making reference to the FOS refering to the attached. I am also going to print and attatch the articles listed in my first posting here and highlight the key sentances that refer to Northern Rock treating customers unfairly. The main points in my complaint to FOS are: 1. NR not treating customers fairly - not informing all customers about the ERC etc.. I read some customers have actually been 'let off' paying an ERC because NR couldnt lend them any more money. 2. My buying position has been compromised by not being able to borrow any more - NR Asset Management ("Bad Bank" part of NR not lending anymore). 'Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977" could apply? 3. Next property purchase (following our sale) has been delayed as we need the ERC money to get our deposit together. Now forded to Rent a property as need this ERC matter sorting out before can move on. Being 'forced' to rent basis of claim that additional costs have been incured due to the many weeks NR have taken to finally say no and confirm that to be their final response. We needed a final response to then go to FOS. 4. Delaying replies to our letters by sending letters to the wrong (old) address then saying my letters did not have recognised signatures on! I have heard it can take an age to get any replies back from the FOS. I have another claim going through the FOS against Royal Bank of Scotland (not related to this matter with Northern Rock or even to do with Mortgages) and I sent that weeks and weeks ago with no acknowledgement yet that FOS have received it. I suggest whatever anyone does send is sent Recorded Delivery - then use the Royal Mail 'Track and Trace' http://track.royalmail.com/portal/rm/track;jsessionid=NE3ZAXYKQVCN0FB2IGJFGAQ?catId=22700601&emt=emt&track=track&default=default&imageRootPath=&loc=en_GB&keyname=track_home&gear=track to get a proof of delivery/received signature. I have also noticed that having sent many Recorded Delivery items that many show on the Royal Mail Track and Trace as a no proof available. If you get this and havent had a reply then I would send it again. Thanks,

Thread here on 'www.thisismoney.co.uk' gives you a few lines on how to complain: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/complain Here is the what (basically) the above link has to say; "In the so-called good old days, a consumer who felt they had been treated unfairly by a financial institution such as a bank or building society, basically had to lump it. But the fairly recent introduction of the Financial Services Authority (FSA), the Financial Ombudsman and a whole host of regulatory bodies, has meant that today's consumer has some clout. How to complain 1. Your first port of call with any complaint in the financial services industry should always be the company itself. You should send your complaint in writing or alternatively make a complaint in person or over the phone. Do remember though to keep a record of the date and time of the complaint as well as the name of the person you spoke to. You should then give the company a reasonable amount of time, typically 14 days, to respond. 2. When you are sure you have exhausted all avenues with the company, which includes a warning that you are about the take the complaint further, then you can go to the Financial Ombudsman. This handles all major banking, building society, insurance, pensions, mortgages and investment complaints. The ombudsman will access whether you have any grounds for a complaint and if it does will request an explanation from the company. If it finds in the complainant's favour, it will expect the organisation to provide a suitable remedy. This could mean anything from putting right what went wrong and providing financial compensation, to a simple apology. The good news though that this assistance is both independent and free of charge. 3. The Ombudsman decision is usually final, but if you disagree with it then you can complain to the Ombudsman's indepedent assessor. Details of this can be found on the Ombudsman's website. The decision Bear in mind that with some ombudsman schemes the decision is legally binding but with others it is not. Some schemes also impose financial limits so if your problem exceeds this, your only recourse may be to go through the courts. Useful contacts Financial Ombudsman http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk 0845 080 1800 All major banking, building society, insurance, pensions, mortgages and investment Ombudsmen have now been pulled together under this umbrella which deals with all personal finance issue."

Just noticed an old CAG thread going back to 2006 - well before Northern Rock problems but the thread has an interesting couple of posts including an interesting letter with references to legal case that may be useful. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?51672

Below are a couple of interesting links to articles on the Internet relating to Northern Rock Early Redemption Fees (or Northern Rock Early Redemption Charges or Northern Rock Early redemption Penalties - hope refering to these will pick up any one else searching CAG for info). Take a look at these: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/programmes/money_box/transcripts/money_box_17_july_10.pdf http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10650290 http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/mortgages-and-homes/article.html?in_article_id=509750&in_page_id=8 http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/mortgages-and-homes/tips-and-guides/article.html?in_advicepage_id=96&in_article_id=496043&in_page_id=53957