Hello

Firstly I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this topic. Also I suspect it may only apply to Scotland.

In 2010 the RBS - Wilson case showed RBS didn't follow the correct procedures in their repossession of Wilson's property.

The court found in favour of Wilson which opened a huge can of worms for most mortgage lenders who also used much the same (wrongful) procedures as RBS.

This means that many properties repossessed prior to 2010 may have been done so wrongly, thereby allowing the debtor (property owner) to recall the decree for repossession.

My question is simple. Is there a time limit for a wrongly repossessed home owner to challenge/recall the decree?

Thanks.

Horsemad1, Vic, Bigdebtor, thank you all most kindly for your responses, it has been very helpful and shown me much more structure to what I should be doing.

This week-end I'll be looking at reclaiming default charges etc., thanks for that BD, glad to see you'll be around till age 200, certainly beats my target.

thanks again everyone, hope you have a good week-end, wrungout.

Horsemad1, many thanks for your response, it helps.

When you said your accounts were in dispute due to no CCA, charges etc can you tell me if it was always a CCA issue or did you have some in dispute due only to charges (possibly disputed).

I have some CCA's which appear to be OK however I also have accounts with charges which to date I haven't disputed.

thanks again for taking the time to help, wrungout.

Billyray

 

Engage the DCA or the creditor (who ever it is that's managing the account/debt) in a dialogue of communication in writing only to discuss a Settlement to the account, send off the letter and wait for their reply. It is very important to obtain proof that there was a 'meeting of the minds' between the two parties to a Settlement agreement/contract.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

Horsemad1, thanks for your thread, it has been a valuable insight into the world of F&F issues and your results with the expert guidance of The Mould are impressive and encouraging.

I hope you won't mind me asking a question on your thread (I will of course open a separate thread if my questions require more than a simple/short response).

Recently I made F&F offers to all my CC's most of whom have now responded and rejected my offer.

Would this constitute that state of "MEETING OF THE MINDS" referred to above? Or, do they actually have to offer me a F&F offer before that state exists?

Also, does the account have to be in dispute in order to use the letter kindly provided by The Mould when sending a F&F offer with a cheque enclosed. (Appreciate some sections would have to be left out if no dispute exists)

Would be very grateful for any clarification, thanks, wrungout.

appealing for some help on the above questions, things getting desperate with the constant phone calls, can't see any way out of the mess, really worried that any equity we may have in our property (originally my wife's but I'm now on the mortgage) may be lost due to my debts/arrears.

If someone could give some feedback on the question of CC going for bankruptcy I'd be really grateful.

I have a few questions spinning around in my head and would be grateful for any info/advice on the points below.

A) Is it common for CC companies to force someone into bankruptcy/sequestration?

B) Does the amount outstanding have any bearing on the above ie say in excess of 20K?

C) How difficult or easy is it for them to establish whether there is equity in an owned property.

D) If there is equity is it possible to sell during any action they may be taking without them realising and then hopefully agree a reasonable F&F settlement?

E) If they go for CCJ and it is defended but fails is it still possible to agree a schedule of affordable payments?

I expect the reasoning for asking these questions is obvious, just trying to protect my wife's interests, she didn't deserve all this -----, couldn't care less about my own now, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

well i cant read it to see if the PT's are there

 

is is readable to you?

 

if it is not "easily legible" it falls foul anyway

 

clearly from a microfiche so either they havnt got the original or cant be bothered looking id say

Thanks for your earlier responses, appreciated.

I have a 'good' photocopy of my original form which is similar to Laura's. The PT's are there in the body of the T&C's down the left hand side BUT they are not "easily legible" without some magnification.

If Laura's agreement were to be put down in front of a judge and you insisted that he check for him/herself that the PT's were in order I would say they would really struggle.

Bearing in mind the microfiche copy would be even less legible what would happen in real life in this situation if it went to court??

Hi Laura, one thing to bear in mind with your above form, the signature on the top left hand corner would have been done internally (probably part of their approval procedure).

You would not have had that signature on the copy that you signed and sent off, so this would not constitute a creditor signature which is a requirement on such agreements. Hope this helps.

Hiya all, I've just logged back on here to read through things and decide what to do next, I am grateful for all your help, but reading through my thread, it seems like it's been hijacked and I'm not sure that the advice given is for me or not? Thanks!

Hello Buzzard, 1000 apologies from me, didn't intend to hijack your thread, it's just we have some similarities in our circumstances and I was interested in some of the comment made by PGH and cbJimmy. Hoped that any response to my own Q's, which they very kindly gave, might be helpful to both of us.

Your CCA requests should be s78 if they are for credit cards, but best wait for confirmation from someone more experienced, I'm still new to it all.

it doesn't matter what it "looks like" since you are arguing that they don't have a legally enforceable agreement, not that you don't have an agreement

 

all you are asking them to do is detail the offer that they are making to you so that they cannot later say in court that they tried to resolve the matter but you ignored them

Hi diddydicky, would be interested to know your thoughts on the unenforceability aspects of Laura's agreement (2003), I have a similar one.

Thanks for the quoted paragragh in your next post and the related comments. Do you think some judges rule against defences because the defence is built around denial of the existence of a legally binding contract as opposed to what you suggest, in other words you'd be in court solely to disprove the legality of the contract which you accept exists?

Hi All

 

I think your find that why there are two differant addresses is one is a regerstered address for the company and the other one is there trading address.

The reason i won my case was they never put the AQ's in on time allthough the Judge gave them more time to submit there paperwork.

The case in the end was struck out, which i then put in a claim for wasted costs. I have received back from the Courts today confirming that they need to pay by the 1st February costs of £685.00

 

Gaz

Hi Gazza, thanks for the clarification on your case and well done on the costs.

Can you remind us what your main defense points were going to be with regard to your Ryanair account, was it the agreement itself or defective DN or suchlike??? OK you're right, I'm off to re-read your thread!!!

not bad:) - apart from offering them until they prove a debt is enforceable

Hi, I'm in a similar situation to Buzzard so will be watching this thread with interest.

PGH & cbJimmy, sounds like you would recommend sending off C78 request first before writing to all CC's to offer reduced & affordable payments. Have I got this the right way round?

I did do CCA to Mvna and got copy of agreement which has prescribed terms albeit they are in tiny print and not easily read without magnification but don't feel i can put account in dispute on this basis. What do you think.

Hi wrungout yes all terms on front page but the left hand side cannot belong to right hand side when it has 2 different addresses the left hand side as been added yours might be the original but it still doesn`t add up as how can the left show an address different to the right hand side? you can`t post yours up can you? another poster had one same as mine and hese won his case at court recently against MBNA

Hi again, all I'm saying is that I have a similar format to yours (and Gazza's) but I kept a copy of the original agreement so I know it isn't a pasted job. I also have two different addresses on mine. So that in itself doesn't necessarily make it a pasted job. Please be careful before levelling any accusations of fraud, in this instance they may be unjustified. Right click my name and you'll find my thread with the agreement.

I'll have to go back to Gazza's thread, can't remember how he won his case.

Will send letter for mbna not complying to the sars. They have not complied to my cca request to the 2 accounts my hubbie as with them either I sent it in November they only sent 2 application forms one from 2005 had prescribed terms on back (but no reference on the front to that and they looked liked they`d been added to the bottom of the page at the back.) The 2003 aplication form had terms on front down left hand side but had clearly been cut and pasted to there (fraud) what letter should I send? if any at all

laura I have a similar agreement to your 2003 one and I have a copy of the original from application date. You are correct in that that there are two different addresses but my application/agreement form had everything on the one page. Just wanted to let you know, using words like fraud can get you into trouble if used incorrectly. Not trying to be obstructive, only helpful.

I'd be interested to know what advice you may get re placing the account into dispute given that the page is probably genuine.

Just for your info, the claim they make in their letter (from post below) states the following:

Where is their signature? It probably didn't appear anywhere else either ie with your card holder letter etc. Any signature or initials that appear on your copy documents will be due to their internal processes but you most likely did not receive any paperwork with their signature when account was opened. Don't know if this helps, will be interested to hear what Vint & others might have to say.

the lastest letter from MBNA.

any thoughts on this??

sorry but i uploaded files in wrong order

2nd one to be read 1st.

Has anyone you know of actually seen their original agreement?

I have a similar agreement with the T&C's down the side and I have a copy of the original and can vouch for everything being on the same page.

The potential issues I have with it are as follows:

Sidebar with T&C's are in very small font and not legible without additional magnification

No lender signature

NO default info or charges anywhere.

Heading is "Credit Agreement...." not "Credit CARD Agreememt.....".

Prsumably yours will be the same, not sure whether this would make it unenforceable, perhaps Supasnooper could give more info on this re post 2.

As this agreement appears to be enforceable is it worthwhile doing a CCA just on the offchance that they may have lost it. Any comments/opinions welcome.

The agreement in post #14 is useless as it has no signature - at best it is therefore just a copy of T&Cs. The agreement in post #5 though is an enforceable agreement. Although it is headed "Application form", it is also headed "credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974" and it has your signature and all the prescribed terms in the sidebar.

Hi Steven, many thanks for your comments.

The application/agreement which you feel is enforceable doesn't have any creditor signature; no clause about default notice or charges; agreement heading is "CREDIT AGREEMENT" as opposed to "credit CARD agreement; and the sidebar with the information was a really small font and quite arguably not legible without some magnification other than normal specs.

Do you think this would make any difference in terms of its enforceability?

Thanks again for your help, wrungout.

Could someone be kind enough to take a look at my paperwork in posts 5 & 14 above and let me know their thoughts on their validity.

Post 5 is the application/agreement; post 14 was sent with the card.

I'd be very grateful for any help on this, many thanks.

Quote from Muffintop post No 443 above......"I need to ask a question and as its mbna and another card that has forced me into this position due to trashing my credit file i hope you will allow me to add it to my thread.

Due to mbna trashing my file i have had every other card which is enforceable due to the time it was taken out after 07.. withdraw all my credit, halifax inparticular dropped from 5k to nothing.

I had 3 bank accounts with heafty overdrafts and they all withdrew it and wanted it back straight away which i have now had to negotiate a drop monthly."

Hi Muffintop, I'm working my way through various threads learning as much as I can and picked this up from one of your posts. Could you possibly tell me how badly mbna had trashed your file at this point when other lenders pulled the carpet from under you. Was it just one or two missed payments or had mbna gone into default on your CRA. Just trying to get a handle on the sequence of events, losing your banking facilities like that must have been quite devastating.

Also this suggests that the lenders run checks periodically for them to be aware of your mbna stuff, does anyone know how often they do this or is it some kind of ongoing automated check. My concern is if I go into missing payments with say mbna does the rest of the house of cards come down as well?

Be grateful for any info you can provide, many thanks.

Meant to say that the so called CCA says credit agreement and not credit card agreement. And also it does not contain a credit limit. Looks to me if this is something that they have on microfiche and not the original.

Hi Snoopyfeet, like you I have paperwork with "CREDIT AGREEMENT" as opposed to credit card agreement so will also be interested to hear if this has any relevance. It doesn't appear to be a prescribed term but may still be important. Hopefully someone will let us know. Good luck in the meantime.

Monty. many thanks for your response above, both encouraging and enlightening. It looks like I may now be where you were when the 5K solicitor fee was not an option, I have much to learn.

I have opened a thread in the mbna section hoping that someone could give me some pointers as to the likely validity of the agreement I have and then I will take it from there.

Thanks again and I will very likely take up your kind offer of asking for the recommended reading material etc.

rgds, wrungout.

Hi, M

 

There is no set timeframe with respect to when they would initiate litigation, could be tomorrow or never.......it is their call with respect to enforcing the alleged debt. If they don't have an agreement then they will be unable to enforce it anyway and as of December will have to submit the Consumer Credit Agreement with any summons that they issue in Scotland.

 

If they do litigate it will be an Ordinary Cause action since it is over £5 K, in this type of action they will not have a cap on costs as with Summary Cause or Small Claims. Something to consider. You will only be liable for costs if you lose. Most actions never get to debate or proof, it depends on what you want to achieve?

 

Personally speaking, if you are sure that they don't have an agreement then I would hold out and let them litigate. They may well offer a settlement and you should consider getting them to remove the -ve markers and default that they will have placed with the CRA's.

Monty, do you mind me asking if you have any knowledge of potential costs in a case like this, is there any kind of average or is it a "length of string" job. Would be grateful for any info you might have in this regard. Thanks.

So an application can count as a valid agreement so long as it contains the prescribed terms?

The application was also headed "CREDIT AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974" so the question really is 'can an application form also be an agreement'. Could I argue that as there was no mbna signature on the application/agreement it would be more likely to classify this document as an application and only that.

 

What every happened to the law of contract. Surely you do not fill out an application form with the intention of creating a legal relationship as nothing has yet been agreed. That intention to create a legal relationship would surely occur after their offer (of a credit account) has been accepted?

That would seem logical to me but are we in the world of logic here? The form they sent with the card confirming the credit limit etc had most of the necessary terms but again no signature and no mention of default notice or charges.

 

It seems jolly confusing to me. I am tempted to pass my case over to one of the companies that says they can write of your debt and let them deal with it.

I'd thought of this too but I do believe there is invaluable help and advice on here from people with detailed knowledge and experience as opposed to the likeilhood you'd be dealing with a paralegal and become just a number in their sausage factory. Just my 2p worth.

MBslayer, Yes the card was attached to this form which they sent out after I'd returned the application/agreement in post 5. The form in post 5 did have some of the relevant terms and it was signed by me (but not mbna).

I suppose any lender can easily prove the existence of their terms etc as you suggest but the issue that many seem to utilise is the validity of the primary documents re their minimum requirements.