If anyone is interested in calculating interest this is how I do it, it is intended for working out back interest owed for say a period of 84 months and you have different amount or charges over that period owing to you. You are reclaiming the charges for some legal reason and now you want to claim the statutary interest on a monthly basis. If anyone want an view of an example then e-mail me and I will e-mail back a spreadsheet. You can do it with a formula just as well, but if you are going to court it will print out nicely on a spreadsheet and there can't be any arguments then. Ieuan 1st payment 84 months ago of £3.95 owing to you, the calculation for the interest is for 84 periods at 8%/12 (0.08/12) time the amount time 84= Use a spreadsheet thus: amount date months constant interest £3.95 date 84 (.08/12) £2.212 £8.96 date 83 (.08/12) £4.9579 set your spreasheet to 4 decimal places and use the currency mode if you like. The advantage of the colums is they are easily added up in Works in seperate columns of principle then interest. If you have different columns for charges, and interest just add two columns it the same calculation with the same constant and the same number of months.

Thanks for input Pompey and Gazz He has not paid compound interest, he has paid their interest charges immediately. So let's start again: 1. has anyone successfully claimed restitutionary damages? 2. if they have please explain how to do it? 3. How do I fill in N1? 4. What is the point of getting more than 6 years of statements if we can only claim 6 years maximum? 5. I know I can get simple interest easily 6. How do I claim restitutionary damages, on what grounds? Anyone? Ieuan

We don't owe any money on the card, it is paid up in full and stopped. My son is claiming back the PPI charges and late interest penalties. We are claiming back 8 years of PPI because he never wanted PPI and they don't have an agreement. They have lost it by the look of it. There is no risk of the agreement being enforced, there is nothing to enforce, but if there is no agrreement it makes it easier for us to claim back charges. that is what I am asking, how do we justify restitutionary damages. And how do we get the bankl's trading profits to calcualte the compound interest? Ieuan

Thanks for the input both We have an agreement but not propery executed. The bank cannot provide me with a copy, they have said so. We are not loking for anything other then PPI and interest charges at simple interest, and later payment charges. If they provide a properly exectued agreement on the day of court then that will rule the deal, but the form is pre ticked as we can see it is pre ticked. Ieuan

I am claiming PPI charges and interest back because: 1. the application form is pre-ticked therfore breaks Unfair Terms In Comsumer Regulations Act 1999 Act, Part Two, schedule 2, Regulation 5(5), 1(i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted with before the conclusion of the contract. 2. The bank have lost the credit agreement and therefore it is unenforcable I gather from the forum that resitutionary damages is the 'in' thing and am asking am I correct to claim and if so am I correct in thinking they are calculated on a compound basis. I understood costs could be gained if the case was a particualrly difficult one. Am I correct in thinking I can claim back for more than 6 years and if so why? Thanks for asking regards ieuan

I have received 6 years of Credit card statements for my son after writing to the bank for 3 months, they are finally taking the SAR of 30th September 2009 seriously. I want more statements going back to 1994 if possible but am ready to put in a small claim for charges and interest. With interest it comes to £260.00 and my costs will be about £100. Has anyone actually claimed restitutionary damages from NatWest plc? if so please let me know how it went. I understand that I put the restitutionary damages down after I win the case. The bank has lost the original credit agreement so I should win on my son's behalf quite easily, I can't see them coming down from Edinburgh to defend such a small claim. I will be claiming back PPI charges (a percentage of his monthly dealings) and have made out a spreadsheet to calculate the interest. I understand that restitutionary damages are calculated as compound interest? Any ideas how to fill in the clai form N1? Thanks Ieuan

URGENT! I think you may have made a mistake by listing punative damages! You would be better served by claiming unfair charges and an Unfair Relationship under OFT Guidlines 854 relating to the Enterprise Act 2002 where these guidelines interpret Consumer Credit Act 2006. OFT854 is a very powerful documents and will make an iron clad case for the claiming of Unfair Charges of banks. You may ask the court if you may amend your claim but this does put it back another 2 weeks, but I think you should. http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/enterprise_act/oft854.pdf regards Ieuan

Look at the contract carefully, is it a genuine copy? Are the signtatures real or do they appear printed or copied. Are the option boxes pre printed or are they ticked, if they are pre-printed you might not have been offered a choice and may have been railroaded into signing something you never wanted. Do you remember signing it, are the conditions what you rmemebr. Is it a real copy or an amalgum of different bits of paer stiched together? Does it look fishy in any way or is it genuine. The general consensus on here is never deal by telephone, always write to them. Suggest you detail all the charges and dates and interest. Make a list with Works and do it on a monthly basis, then calculate the interest, see how much it comes to. It is hard work and takes time, but you have plenty of time and it costs nothing, in the end you narrow them down until they are looking at court action and costs, they hate costs, and they hate interest and they hate losing. Be patient and it should all come togther nicely. regards Ieaun

Thanks IainHL The £30 000 mortgage advance was from 27 April 2007 by National Westminster Home Loans Limited authorised and regulated by the FSA. The original Mortgage for £40 000 with Natwest Bank dated 3 May 2002 and regulated by the Personal Investment Authority and IMRO for investment business. You have made me think this through and it could very well be that I should not stop the payments to the bank for the mortgage. I am taking action because they have failed to deliver personal data and in particular a signed agreement relating to the mortgage. I cannot see how any court can enforce an agreement in the absence of a signed agreement or a properly executed agreement, it is something a court has to decide on. It certainly will cause a flurry of activity from the bank. I have made my complaint to the Ombudsman regarding the taking of money from my son's account and in failing to comply with the SAR. I have also drafted a letter of complaint to the Information Minister regarding failure to comply with the SAR. I think that it probably is a low level action in more ways than one in their taking my son's money. I have reported fraud regarding the actions by ommision on the Home insurance to the Ombudsman and am considering whether to report to the police or the OFT also. There have now been over 46 communications with Natwest, some letters over 5 pages long with legal considerations and requests. Many letters remain unanswered, some letters returned in their entirity by NatWest with enclosed doucments, most by low level officers of the bank who think they are acting correctly. The two letters received from a manager and an area manager both with common sense and curtosy. Whatever happens I will take court action on the 17th of this month via the local county court using the N1 form. I think that the court will treat me leniently because I am a layman, and because NatWest have provaricated for so long and very often petulantly even if I am wrong. I can be wrong or right and at least then I know how to proceed. Thanks very much both for your kind input regards Ieaun

citizenB Thanks a lot, very much appreciated for your swift response, I will get on it straight away. regards Ieuan

You've won, if a tick box has not been ticked by you or you did not tell them to tick it then they have presented a non negotiable agreement and that can be deemed unfair. an Unfair relationship nulifies the contract and you can ask for it to be put aside in part or the whole of it cancelled by a judge. You need to look at the regulatons such as UTCCR 1999. It is available on the internet in PDF format. The other regulations are the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and 2006. Unfair Relationships; Enterprise Act 2002; OFT Guidance 854 May 2008, Irresponsible Lending OFT Guidance 1107con July 2009 regards ieuan

Thanks Sunshine for the quick repy. So damages would be limited to the amount of time spent on the case? regards Ieuan

I have been representing my son for the last three months dealing with NatWest. The bank has failed to provide the required documents for our SAR. They are a month late and have now admittted they cannot find three key agreements: 1. Mortgage agreement 2002 £40K 2. Additional borrowing on mortgage 2007 £30K 3. Fixed loan agreement 2006 £30K He borrowed £60K in the last three years and spent the lot on a [problem] that was purportrated by a so called pal. We were going to go the way of irresposnible lending but we got the SAR out of the way first or so we thought. It seems so careless of them to lose 3 key agreements, but I suppose they could turn up at any time. I am drafting a final letter to give them 14 days to turn up with the documents, and archive documents for our charges claim. Does anyone have any ideas of how my claim for damages could be framed for the court and how much? To date there has been about thirty letters from me to the bank and about 40 hours of work involved. Thanks in advance Ieuan

Try down loading Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083 The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contrcats regulations 1999 If you signed a contract for the advantage Gold account look at clause 8 An unfair term ina contract concluded with a consumer by a selelr or suplier shall not be binding on the consumer. Down load this and read it if you had terms given you without you individually negotiating them. best wishes Ieaun

Yes Indeed 42Man, I gave the notice 11 days ago and it is up on Saturday. I am writing my last warning today that if they do not comply within 14 days I will instigate court action to compel them to provide the 2 missing documents and claim damages. I wonder what damages to claim though, would it be all the work I have put in so far or an estimate say £1000 and let the court decide? How does one report them to the Information Commissioners office? The thing is if they can't find the documents then it suggests an inproperly exectuted agreement that they cannot enforce, it is whether I can then apply to have the debt cancelled entirely by the court so that all negative credit references can be removed. If the debt cannot be enforced then I suppose all the PPI's deals are also cancelled and I can apply for a refund of all charges. This would be a gift to any specialist firm acting for digrunteld consumers. I thought my original claim was strong but this is unbelievable. How powerful can one letter be... asking for data via the data Protection Act 1998? Middenmess, thanks for reply, yes it does smell of panic, the special delivery came around teatime and it was dark here, so it was surprising that it suddenly seemed so important to them to send it on 10 days late, but then my deadline is up on Saturday and I have told them that if nothing comes by the 14 December I will instigate court action without further notice. Looking through the paperwork I see that they do have a signed copy, my son has signed for the £30K addition to the mortgage and it is witnessed but they have not signed it and they have not attempted to falsify it either which is indicative to how seriously they are beginning to take this matter. So the further loan is also 'not properly executed' and cannot be enforced. To recapitulate, they have lost or incompletly executed three documents: 1. original mortgage agreement 2. addition of £30K to the mortgage agreement 3. £17K Fixed sum agreement All three have PPI's realted to them, No. 1. with £25/month PPI and No. 3 with an upfront charge to the loan + interest added up to £6k to the loan agreement just for PPI. I have stopped the DD for the mortgage agreement solely based on them being late with their SAR, now that they have admitted that they cannot find the original mortgage agreement then I just can't see how they can do anything about it. If they go to court this whole mess will come out and the court will have to decide. if I am wrong it is hardly a crime to miss one or two payments for a mortgage and I can always start up a payment scheme again until this is settled. regards Ieuan

The strangest thing Middenmess, we just this moment received a special delivery from NatWest and they don't have the signed agreement for the mortgage to hand!!! They have sent lots of paperwork realting to the mortgae but admit they can't find the signed agreement. So it seems the mortage is also unenforceable so I don't need worry about the repayments, they can indeed be stopped. They could however as in the McGuffick case find these signed agreements and produce them. The best way to proceed now may be to ask the court to force them to produce the documents and if they fail to then to ask for damages for all my claims? Regards Ieuan

42Man Thank you for that link, interesting. Although I think some of the site templates are now out of date as regards registering a debit with a CRA. I finally got the point of that McGuffick case, if the bank has no signed copy then they cannot report you for arrears, but if they do have the signed copy then they can report you for arrears, is that how you see it? But the bank have written to me quoting the McGuffick case saying they can report me even though they don't have the signed agreement to hand. regards Ieuan

Thank Middenmess I am truly grateful for all your good efforts and help these past two months. Having someone to chat through my thought processes on what to do and what not to do, bearing in mind this is all new to me, has been an invaluable aid to me. The results so far have been nothing short of spectacular, and although I often feel afraid of what I have done on my son's behalf I am getting more confidant that sweet talking and legal arguments will all pale into insignificance when the facts are laid before a judge. I have just cancelled a letter that was about to be posted regarding owning up to the debt and agreeing mediation. On your advice I will dwell on my response for a week or two if need be. Thank you again for your good advice and a down to earth balanced response. IainHL, We cancelled the PPI on this loan and the difference is the part that we cancelled, but originally it was £30000 payback for a £17000 loan. They had added PPI and interest of £6000 Plus their normal interest. The original payback was £250/month and after we cancelled the PPI element it was reduced to £218/month. We have agree now it is time to close his account with NatWest, I reported them to the OFT yesterday for purloining his money and for reactivating a dead DD. The parachute account ha sbeen open for three weeks now and so his pay is going intot hat account. It's just a matter of informing them to close his account which i will do sometime this week. They have not sent a reconstructed agreement althougbh we do have a pre -agreement document with all the terms but unsigned and yet we have a signed agreement from them about the PPI. None of these suggest that there was a properly executed agreement. And as such there cannot be a valid agrement for the court to judge on. I take both yours and Middenmess's advice that protecting a man's credit history is the least of our problems, it just goes to show that my son isn't the brightest spark in the forge when it comes to rationalising his finacial plight. Because of your advice (both) I have torn up a letter and shall ponder for a long time before I write again. The only thing worriyng me now is that I have stopped his mortgage repayments on the basis that they have not turned up with the mortgage agreement under the DPA 1998, they have not fully comlied with my SAR of the 30 September. They cannot enforce that debt without court action and if they do take court action all my letters to them with my complaints will come to the court's attention. I have decided to go for the full claim instead of small bites. This means we may have to pay out enourmous costs if we lose but I really don't think anyone could argue agaisnt us, and it is their responisbility to prove that they were not in an unfair relationship. He was earning 20K pa and living on £50.00 week even fater we stopped the draudster. We have signed and written evidence to the fraud so there are no implciation that my son was involved in anything illegal. he lives like a pauper but doesn't seem to mind at all. I take your point hat he is now enjoyng a well earned repayment holliday and life is certainly easier for him. I am taking all the stress from him in dealing with these jackals. I am eternally grateful for this site and will be making a seciond donation soon when HFC have coughed up what they promised to cough up. I have suggested it to my son and he has agreed that we owe the site something. The only thing is in court proceedue it says it is not something that the courts like to have a prosecuation hangng over someone, they do like the claimants to be procative in pursuing their cliam and mediation is part of that process so I will have to meet at some time and show willingness to mediate before taking court action. I wonder when NatWest will get annoyed enough at the stopped repayments and try to get a ruling or take court avtion themselves. If it lasts a year my son will be £7 500 better off. If it lasts two years he will be £15 000 better off. Thanks for that probono link, I will look at that.

You are right of course he has been too honest, But we are talking of a half dozen claims and this is the 2nd biggest, what's wrong in cutting a deal if they know they have to pay PPI back + interest + restitutionary damages? Plus any damages due to irresponsible lending. I mean this case is so complicated. That McGufflick case was a set up to explore the courts judgement on what we alway state in our SAR requests, that they can't harrass us in any way or charge interest or increase charges. the bank were squeaky clean in the procedures and held that doucment all the time, the judge knew that, they knew that only the consumer group did not know it until too late.The bank got the ruleing they wanted. The bank can report any debt they want to, it cannot be quiried only on an individual basis. In fact the judgement allowed them to demand the money back, but they would be in danger if they made it a hassal or with any physical threats , or telephoned at odd hours. We are already protected there by the Unfair relationships. I will have a word with my son, I do think he is naive, but we can use this as a negotiating tool. They know all the PPI's are going to have to be given up + interest + restitutionary damages, it just how stupid they want to be, and if they can provoke us into doing something stupid they win again. I thought the arguments put forward in the McGufflick case uhm how can I say this, out on a limb. How can you deny a debt exists if they have an agreement with the figures and the bank statement show that you recieved it? and your bank statement show you make regualr payments month after month. The judge knew that there was an agreement and the law says if a signed agreement cannot be shown they cannot enforce it. And that is what happened, but now they are being vindictive and reporting anyone who wins for the debt and that judge has ruled that they are right. The only chance we have is to claim irresponsible lending, unfair relationship and allow the judge to see all our letters and charts and whatever we have to show him and they have to prove they were not unfair. Our total claim must be in the region of £80 000, so the bank must want to settle right? I mean they can't stall for another 3 months, that would be testing any reasonable person. In these credit act cases we have to follow a procedure and that is set down in that link I posted, we have to offer arbitraion, I just wish I knew how it works. Then when we have exhausted all negotiations then we can go to court and not before. That is what I learned in the past week.

The problem now is this that the standard SAR letters on this site are inaccurate and out of date and can no longer be used in their present form. I say this reluctantly as they did give a kind of power to the consumer to thrash the banks with. However this is not bourne out in a recent case when judgment was made on the 6/10/2009 see: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/mcguffick-v-rbs.pdf This test case between McGffinck v. Royal Bank of Scotland shows in detail the considerations. Because the bank cannot provide the signed agreement does not mean the money is not owed. The bank can show clearly that the money went into my son's account at a certain date. They can show also that we paid the exact amount for a period of two years and that now we have stopped. The debt is unenforceable, but it still exists and as it still exists can be reported to debt agencies, it can also be demanded although the bank has not done this yet. The bank acknowledges that the debt cannot be collected in anyway and no court will enforce it. The only fishy thing about this case is that the bank reported this to me and there it is on the internet as bold as brass but is it true? Now, I don't know if it is true or not, but I would like to know. My son is worried about his crdit rating so he wants me to negotiate with the bank and cut a deal.

I got a response from NatWest this morning saying they have lost the agreement, what to do, what a dilema. They've lost the agreement and it is worth £30 000. My son has paid off £11 248.18 and stil owes £16 369.40. They assure me that the debt is valid and that we should continue to meet our obligations. They promsie to report us to a CRA should we fall into arreas. They are quoting McGufflick v RBS that they are entitled to take any action short of enforcement Including registering a default with a CRA. We stopped the Direct Debits 2 weeks ago but they still managed to deduct £218 from his account, cheeky so and so's. They insist that DPA 1998 s10(2)(a) and Scedule 2 paragraph 1.2 and three of the DPA. That they have to process data to operate our account. Maybe we should close the account We opened the parachute account weeks ago. They also mentioned that they cannot understand how I can say the account is in dispute and I am gobsmacked that: 1. 40 letters back and fro claiming an Unfair Relationship 2. They charged £6000.00 PPI up front on a £17K loan 3. They cannot supply the original signed document Isn't enough evidence of a dispute. Any ideas on the legal ramifications? Needless to say we won't be payng any more money to this maverick bank.

How do I report this thread to an admin to get some help?

I got the same letter this morning, and this one is for £30 000, my son has paid £11248 and still owes £16369. The loan was a fixed sum loan and there was £6000 of PPI on it. What is a CRA? Ieuan

you could write to the CRAs and advise that the account is in dispute UHm what is a CRA?

Yes, I have recieved the SAR from Ford 10 days early but they were late with the acknowlegment. They are missing a couple of documents and some are illegible, and I have asked for tape recording transcipts but they have not answered, and am typing up a letter to ask for the reverse side of an invoices that I have never seen. How can I agree to the terms on the reverse side of an invoice that I have enver seen? I have asked them to confirm if there are telephone conversations and if not to write back and state categorically that there are no tape recordings and why not as they warn with their telephone calls that the message may be recorded. This is important as they made an offer to me by telephone. I am also going to ask Santander for a viewing of the original agreement signed by my son. ''I think the Fraud Act may be involved. I mean by this that Santander and Ford XXX have given contrary information regrding documents. And also bait and switch is a criminal offence, or I think it is. It is certainly criminal. regards Ieaun