Thanks for the lightning speed reply :o) I can scan them as soon as i get back, probably be a couple of hours. Appreciate any help or advice I get as always.

Subbing. I can relate to a lot of this, all the best HP Mum!

Just an update as to proceedings! I took the Judges advice and got legal help, a recent request for information has provided us with two loan agreements which was not included in the original POC one is a CCA and the other is an unregulated agreement, both these was sent to me in 2010 when the bank gave me no option but to do as I'm told or they would start proceedings. Is there anything I could possibly look for in these agreements which I could use as a defence? The solicitor has requested other information such as bank statements which I haven't received and amount of arrears if any? Shoosmiths have yet to provide this information, they have had two weeks but nothing as yet. The last court date was used to get directions from the judge. I'm being advised to make the bank an offer of repayment which I have tried to do myself for over a year but every proposal including lump sums has been refused, the other option is to claim I have not had proper legal advice as during the purchase the same solicitor worked for everyone resulting in a conflict of interest and I can honestly say I was never advised about any legalities or made aware of this all monies clause which was in the original agreement. Would anyone advise me if taking the solicitors advise would be in my best interest or should I push some of my own, I've read so many stories about people being let down I feel like I'm in a dilemma although the solicitor has got us a month to get things in order. In the meantime the bank are continuing to empty my account. I would appreciate any feedback, thanks.

How are you getting on with Natwest? very interested to compare how they are treating you as it seems similar to myself. All the best

It's been adjourned, although the judge was grumpy and unsettled me by shouting at us both, even the solicitor admitted he was not happy. I was advised to get legal advice on an all monies payable charge, the judge was certainly not happy with Natwest because he said where is the rest of the documentation to give me a reason to grant this!! to the solicitor and I took it as a hint from him when he said to me ' if you can come back with a good enough reason not to grant possession is that what you would want' I said yes but I have until the next available date to prepare a defense and witness statement. Anyone think I have a chance?

Good luck steve2012, I'm having a nightmare with natwest, no explanation from them just hit a bad patch things starting to improve then they don't want my business and want there money back, there trying a possession order this week in court I think I have a good case to put forward we'll see. I have a business premises under commercial loan and they stitched me up with overdrafts and charge on my house also revoked all my facilities apart from paying in.

I spoke to the court and got passed round a few people, I explained I've filed the wrong defence form but it was what I was sent by the solicitor and I have also received poc for mortgaged residential premises for my house which is not mortgaged by the natwest just a charge and poc for mortgaged residential premises which is entirely commercial, they said it there is nothing much I can do as it's not my fault and if I explain this to the representing solicitor of natwest and the judge this will most probably be taken into consideration? there is nothing much I can do really, keep my fingers crossed. I'm just trying to compile a list of bullet points to take with me so I don't forget anything, the poc don't mention anything about the new agreement from jan/feb 2010, will I be safe using the unfair treatment clause from BCOBS? I have still not received response from my second SAR, I haven't had a bank statement from them since december 2010, I'm also interested in seeing these agreements for the £20k from two dissolved ltd companies which they added to the charge forcing me and my brother into a loan and the £20k which was consolidated into the commercial loan. Although I have estimated they have been paid or should I say helped themselves to about £12k over the last 14 months so they can't say they haven't had any money off me or I've made no attempt to make repayments, charges upto dec 2010 amount to £4650 and the arrangement fees for the 20k loan £2500 and the consolidation charge and arrangement fees £4000. Thanks for everyone's assistance so far. PS @andyorch did you manage to look at the poc I attached? Thanks

Thanks for your reply, It was Shoosmith who sent me the defense forms, the POC N120 form they have sent me relates to residential mortgage possession for my house (although it's not mortgaged with natwest) and business premises they say is also residential mortgage possession N120 although it's entirely commercial and both my defense forms are for rented residential possession N11R. I found this which confirmed it for me, am I correct?. C I V I L P R O C E D U R E R U L E S P A R T 5 5 CPR Part 55 – implemented on 15 October 2001. Materials Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2001 SI No. 256, Schedule 1. Practice direction - PD55. Forms - available at http://www.courtservice.gov.uk/fandl/menu_house.htm N206 A Notice of Issue N206 B Notice of Issue N5 Claim form for possession of property N5A Claim form for relief against forfeiture N119 Particulars of claim for possession (rented residential premises) N7 Notes for defendant N7A Notes for defendant N11R Defence form (rented residential premises) N120 Particulars of claim – mortgaged residential premises N11M Defence form – mortgaged residential premises N5B Claim form – accelerated possession procedure N11B Defence to possession claim – accelerated procedure N7B Notes for defendant – forfeiture claim N121 Particulars of claim – trespassers N11 Form of defence N26 Order for possession N27 Order for possession (forfeiture) N28 Order for possession (rented residential premises)(suspended) N28A Order for possession (rented residential premises)(postponed) N440 application for time order

I have definately filed incorrect defence forms, I've just checked and the N120 POC is for mortgaged residential premises, they sent me N11R which is for rented residential premises, I filled in the best I could and sent them without really noticing. My house is not mortgaged with Natwest they just say they have a legal charge on it and my business which is what the loan is for is commercial property entirely which also had a N11R. Really confused, should I let the court know I've been issued with incorrect paperwork therefore my defence will not be as it should be? I'm wondering if whoever at natwest have told shoosmith these three properties are buy to lets or something along those lines? I've been googling these forms and it is all wrong.

Sorry just realised I've removed figures! if you need me to re-do please let me know, I have scanned the other document and witness statements so If you would like to look at those I can upload them too. I'm fairly sure the defence forms are the wrong ones, these are N11R Rented residential premises and I saw an N11M mortgaged residential premises which was stapled in the other bundle I got from shoo'ssmith (a blank one) this looks more like what I've to use, this is a claim form and particulars with a blank form tossed in stapled together looks like a right botch up. Should I scan it to show the difference on the forms? Thanks in advance

That took some doing, here's one of the claim forms the other is identical apart from change of address for possession. I also received another two bundles which both made a thud as they landed on the mat, they are witness statements, shall I upload these as well? The other claim form and particulars seems a right bodge up, after two pages their is a blank defence form for mortgaged residential premises then the particulars of claim, also on the claim form they are claiming possession of one property when it is two? then on the poc it goes back to two. They also state it includes residential property when it is all commercial. Apart from that the attached is the same document. Many thanks, sorry it took so long to get on. Untitled.pdf

Thanks for getting back to me, I'll scan the particulars of claim it's quite a large document there is two one for each property, the fos is very slow going to ring them tomorrow I keep having very bad days and the tablets I'm on put me in the wrong frame of mind to deal with things in a logical manner which I know is not good. I have to go to court on the 19th the fos told me to go tell the court about the position the bank have put me in, how unfair matters have been and give an assessment of how much money I have lost due to the banks threat (which I have a recording of the advisors admission to threatening me) and how I have made multiple offers of payment now business is improving and 4 people could be out of work if they wish to proceed with possession. Whether this is good advise I can only hope. I'll be back soon as I done scanning! Thankyou again!

I've filled in my defence form which they sent me 2, one for my house and the other for the commercial property, what I would like to know which I've just noticed is the form is a N11R Defence form for Rented Residential Premises? is this the correct form I have been sent? Also in the Particulars of claim it seems to have a lot of irregularities ie. As far as they are aware I am not in possession of my house and they state it's part residential and commercial also the commercial property is being claimed for as residential? They Also haven't quoted any arrears there may be, just a total sum of monies which they are claiming stating they do not have any further information about the claim just a sum which is split into two parts, one for the commercial loan and the other being my brothers overdraft which they converted to loan. As Natwest forced consolodation of overdrafts on my business and restructured the loan agreement without giving me any reason at the time apart from telling me this is a short term measure after a period of time they would reinstate my facilities, would this be covered by BCOBS? they forced this upon me giving me no alternative as they said they would have to commence recovery of all money if I did not comply this happened towards the end of 2009 about september but when forced I had to agree in january 2010 with new agreements.

Hi allykat, thanks for your support, I'm not giving up although I have felt like it many times but I have realised they are not going to take my life away from me. The people I have had to deal with are the most arrogant, horrible, ruthless people I have come across, I've had someone pull a knife on me before know and that was a far more pleasant experience than with the Natwest. I have had nothing at all in response to SAR although i know it has been signed for. This is a great site, just started feeling a bit guilty because I'd had some help and didn't have anything to give back at the time, I just hope I can get one over on Badwest.

Sorry Ignore the donate question! I shouldn't be so blind to the obvious, done it now.

Just and update, Natwest haven't sent me my information after the time lapsed for my SAR, I've sent another request. They have disregarded my complaint from the fos who'm I've to speak to again as they are not impressed with proceedings and the Natwest seem adamant to proceed with a possession order, I've emailed shoosmiths about my opinion of the banks unfair treatment and obstruction but they have yet to come back to me. Natwest also disabled my card machine so I couldn't take any payments by card so I contacted streamline and persuaded them to re-enable it after they informed me 'as far as they was concerned the business was no longer operating' why or how they could of assumed that I don't know lol. I'm in the process of preparing a defence and I'm finding the BCOBS information very interesting reading. While I have some money could someone please tell me how I can make a donation? Also with all the grief, lies, threats and illness (i've been really ill since christmas, felt really down, no energy, depressed, went to see the doctor and he said it's stress related but sent me for blood tests and found I'm really low on vitamin D, gave me a year on calceos supplements. would I or could I be in a position to make a counter claim? Don't forget to tell me how to donate! Thanks in advance

I've done that, received correspondence at home saying your home is about to be repossessed and could be made homeless, it's suggested I seek independant advice! Thanks alot shootsmiths!

Thanks for the reply citizenB, really appreciate being given some direction. Shoosmiths specify Mortgage Pre Action Protocol, I've read a little on it and to me it refers to residential and mortgages, what I have is a commercial loan which my house is security. I've had an agent look at the shop property to see if it would be worth trying to sell just so I could keep my house and maybe try and rent somewhere but they are of the opinion it's worth less than half what I paid for it in the current climate which if all property was taken and sold still would not cover the loan. Natwest fell over themselves to lend me that money at the time. Will an email to shooshop be sufficient to satisfy their request? Thanks for helping

My heads overflowing with what I should do and I'm getting nowhere fast, just doing SAR do I send it to shoosmiths as it's they who have demanded a response by tomorrow? Also how do I donate can't see a link or button or am I being stupid? Thanks for the advice so far.

I'm really grateful for the responses, I have no one I can ask for advice family etc. It does help mentally getting responses from my posts. I have not done an SAR I presume I would just do the standard one with the additional request for other accounts and extra information. Should I send this to shoosmiths as well? seeing as though they want to hear from me by tomorrow which I think is an unreasonable amount of time considering I only received the document on friday. I also have the complaint in with the fos which natwest sort of acknowledged involvement of the fos, I logged my complaint in September, Natwest replied with:- My understanding of your complaint to the bank The information provided to the bank by the fos suggests you consider being forced into taking a consolidation loan, that insufficient support has been provided in setting up a repayment agreement, that your IFA was unsuccessful in discussing repayment with this office and you received a call which you found threatening. Please let me know if you think I have misunderstood or missed anything. Details of my investigation In order to investigate your complaint, I have reviewed the file provided by you Business Manager and the electronic records held since you accounts were referred to this Office for recovery of your liability. It is clear a Business loan was discussed and considered over a period of several months, you business manager monitored you Business Current Account to ensure that there was sufficient credits to cover the contractual repayments of a consolidation loan. A letter was sent to you I have enclosed a copy, which you may find useful. The loan was suggested to help your financial situation and affordability was proved. You were under no obligation to sign the loan agreement form and should of sought independant advice if you were not entirely happy with the situation. Once accounts are referred to this office for recovery, repayment is expected in the short term, normally within three years. Discussions were held with our field agent in order to come to a mutually acceptable way forward. However, I can find nothing to suggest that repayment was arranged. Please accept our apologies that you found a call from this office to be threatening; it was certainly not our intention. Staff are trained to be professional at all times and it is essential that customers are made aware of consequences of non repayment. This office is due to take action as no repayment has been agreed. My decision and racionale After my investigation I am sorry but I have not decided to uphold your complaint. This is because as I have already detailed, all of the correct procedures were undertaken by the bank to ensure affordability and to adhere with the Data Protection Act. I appreciate this is not the response you was hoping for. We view the facts of each complaint individually when drawing our conclusions and I hope my explanations helps you understand the reasons behind my decisions. Next Steps I believe my decision is fair, based on the information available to me. Ultimately if we cannot reach an agreement, you have the right to refer your complaint to the FOS but I hope this will not be necessary. If I dont hear from you within 8 weeks then I assume you are satisfied and close your complaint. Customer care team. The loan wasn't to help me Natwest just wanted there overdrafts back or they would commence proceedings to recover it, left me no option really. There was no mention of affordability, the copy letter they have sent me is nothing to do with what they put in place. I have spent months trying to find a mutually acceptable way forward, not sure who the field agent is, no one has been to see me?? I found the call threatening as someone shouting down the phone saying they are taking my house and my business is not professional and to speak to the Natwest person the next day tells me 'It was in the heat of the moment'??? If he was mad at someone else there was no need to take it out on me.

Thanks for the reply, when I first took on the business I was very naive my bank manager was my best pal and I did pretty much everything he said or offered so most probably there are products which I have been sold that could be subject to claim, my most blatent cock up was a stakeholder pension, I knew nothing about it or how they worked paid a chunk of money into it a can no longer keep it going or get the money back. Overdraft's we had three one for each business, my brother had one overdraft I had two, two of them was ltd companies but natwest forced the loans on us so everything is now on the sole trader account.

Sorry I meant to say this is my business account they raid money from, It's a sole trader account. I've been using my personal account to buy stock and pay bills but cheque and card payments the Natwest take and HMRC don't believe the bank have not sent any statements for a year and will not accept the truth as to why I have to work like this.

Thanks for your reply, and advice, they usually ring me I have had very little in writing, Shoosmiths have sent a covering letter saying they act for natwest, we have been instructed that the debt is due and owing as secured by legal charges given by me. in the absence of payment we have been instructed to commence legal proceedings to seek recovery of property. We have been instructed by our client wrote to you in accordance with the requirements of the Mortgage Pre Action Protocol. In the absence of any acceptable payment proposal and in the absence of any request from you to delay issue of proceedings for any reason then you should treat this letter as a demand for payment of the debt owing and as a letter of warning that proceedings will be commenced after 7 days. In order that you are aware of a claim against you we have enclosed the following. legal charges cca notice formal demands statement of liability MPAP letters and checklist In the event you have proposal to pay this debt or in the event that you consider that our client should postpone or delay the issue of proceedings I should contact them. You should inform us if any of the following apply you have proposal to repay whether by lump sum or installments you require our client to consider a change in payment method you submit a claim to an insurer under mortgage protection you have submitted a complaint to the financial ombudsman you have the properties for sale If you do nothing the court may award a possession order in our clients favour which may result in losing your home. They literally empty my account a few times a month, whether it's £100 or £1500 they take everything. I've tried all year to come to an arrangement and all they have insisted on is repayment in full. They have had money every month all I wanted to do was make an arrangement, systematically ruined my business, turnover is half what is was with them doing what they are, my major worry is 3 of us will be unemployed a business established 30 years will be gone and I will have no home, the property will not cover what is owed, the business would if they helped us. It's a commercial loan not a mortgage does the same documentation still apply??

Last 3 years have been hell with Natwest, I have a small shop which is on a commercial loan with my house as security. Business has been difficult especially with some serious problems and whilst I had money to cover repayments they was also keen to offer me overdraft facilities across 3 accounts upto 40k 3 years ago, within a year of these facilities in place they wanted it back, I asked why the panic all of a sudden and they just said it's been passed over, my bank manager no longer wanted anything to do with me?? this Natwest person suggested consolodating one of the overdrafts onto my shop loan and converting 2 accounts into a loan, seperate businesses, on the strength that after a period of good banking they will be reinstated, I thought it was odd but natwesr gave me no choice and I was lead to believe they was helping. Now Natwest want to enforce there security ie take my house and shop, I registered a complaint with federation of small business who suggested I contact the fos, Natwest replied basically saying we are not upholding your complaint if you don't like it you can register a complaint with fos, but that is were the complaint come from. Last friday I received a pack from shoosmiths basically saying we having been instructed to enforce the banks security and proceed to take your property, they have given me 3 working days from receipt. I'm walking round in a daze but I know this problem is real and they will take everything I have worked for and made myself skint for over the last 6 years, 3 great and 3 hell. The bank won't listen, tried all ways and all this person told me was to go to another lender borrow money from somewhere else, which I can't, just no sense and verbally threatened to take my property, and to only use the account to pay them what they are owed, (which I have recorded) and generally treat me like ****, I even went into a branch to get a printout so I can see how much they have taken and after being made to wait 20mins I got called into a side room and handed a telephone with someone on the other end telling me off for trying to use the bank and my proposals for paying everything back. They haven't sent me a bank statement for a year, I have no facilities, all my credits they take 2 or 3 times a month they empty my bank account. I just don't know what to do, battled for so long they have worn me down and out. Thanks for reading hope someone can offer me some advice??

Thanks for the information WD very helpful, I'll get onto Ofgem, how far can a bailiff go to break into a property, can they physically do damage to the building or do they have to use reasonable means ie a locksmith.