Postggj, no horizontal lines of blue dots on the front and nothing on the back except a number: 500153, which I assume is just an envelope batch number. 1MansQuest

Thank you. There's a black Barcode next to the UKML number and two orange Barcodes underneath.

Thanks for that. There's no actual date on the envelope, its a bar code and some text (UKML 525035220). How do I determine the posting date from this?

Received my copy of the agreement from Halifax, identical to everyone else. As there's no consensus on the validity of this type of agreement, I'm relying upon the default notice which was dated 7 days before I actually received it! I kept the envelope and it's electronically stamped, but how do I prove the actual posting date? 1MansQuest

Well done zhan. Its been hard work and you've done incredibly well on your own. Returning your experience back to the forum in such detail is both admirable and vital to the rest of us, thank you. Back in earlier posts, I commented on electronic signatures because I'm fighting the same case, so its particularly important for me to know the final outcome. Fingers crossed for you! 1MansQuest

It all depends on your original motives. Why did you CCA them and then claim a dispute? Do you want to find an unenforceable agreement or no agreement, and then begin negotiations for a full and final settlement? Or do you want to stop paying them altogether? It's definitely easier to continue paying if you can afford it, or you could negotiate a substantially reduced monthly payment until your finances are in better shape. Either way, you do need to contact the DCA. But before you do this, determine exactly what you really want from this whole process and lay the law down accordingly, with the help of everyone here at the forum. The specifics of what to do next depends on your answer to the above. Hope this helps. 1MansQuest

It's odd that you've received no communication from Egg over that time. It maybe because they mixed up your contact details and sent correspondence to an old address. Your lack of response would then cause them to sell the debt to Fredrickson Int. who have now caught up with you. You could begin negotiations for a full and final settlement or require them to supply you with a copy of your agreement, and take it from there. I would certainly check my credit rating to see if you've been defaulted, and you may want to contact Egg to find out what's happened in the last three months. 1MansQuest

The most important aspect is whether they supplied you with a copy of your original signed agreement or not, and I suspect not. Although they shouldn't sell your account on whilst in dispute, if they do, it usually means they can't find the agreement and the cheapest alternative is to sell your debt to a DCA. It doesn't really matter who now owns the debt, because they too must provide you with a copy of the original agreement in order to prove the debt exists and that it conforms to the CCA regulations. Keep your nerves and hang-in there. 1MansQuest

You can complain to both and to trading standards, but the reality is they won't stop. They use automated calling to dial you; if you answer its passed to a human being, if you don't answer, it just goes through a cycle of other calls until your number comes up again. Make your complaints, but have another strategy for dealing with nuisance calls. Try a challenge answerphone like 'trueCall'. It's a godsend if you're dealing with more than one bank, although you still have to contend with mobile calls. Sorry if that's unwelcome news, but its better to be forewarned. 1MansQuest

Thanks Elsa. They didn't give a remedy date, just stated 17 days from the day after the date of notice. The notice was dated the 20th April, I received it 22nd April. Counting from 21st April, I should have responded by 8th May. The termination letter was dated 11th May. This seems OK, even if I count from the date I received the default notice, which was 2 days later, making 10th May. The termination notice is then just one day in their favour, being dated 11th May. Or have I missunderstood something? 1MansQuest

Can someone please clarify the date issues surrounding default and termination notices. I have a default notice dated 20th April which I received 22nd April, followed by a termination notice dated 11th May received 15th May. How does this work in terms of the post and weekends? Are these notices fair? 1Mansquest

Brachers response in Paragraphs 14 and 15 regarding the IP address is ludicrous. Exactly what is the point in having The Electronic Communications Act 2000 (ECA) and The Electronic Signatures Regulations 2002 (ESR) if the formal identification of a person applying electronically for a service is of no legal significance or value? When Brachers say that IP address verification is of no value, they are saying the law is of no value, and that it doesn’t matter who applied for the service, it only matters who used the service. But what if a fraudster with your personal details went online and applied for a credit card in your name, intercepted it, then went on a spending spree. Who would they hold responsible for the debt now? To Brachers, it doesn’t matter if that was really you or not. But the law says otherwise. The usage of a credit card that arrived at your door does not constitute an agreement. If a service is applied for electronically, ‘YOU’ must have agreed to the terms and conditions of service, and ‘YOU’ must be identified as having agreed to that service, not Joe Blogs fraudster, Aunty May, or Gladys Night and The Pips. Brachers cannot be allowed to casually circumvent the law in this way, or fraudsters will have an even bigger field day than they already have, and we’ll all pay the price. 1MansQuest

Yes, the original agreement stands, but were you to ask BC for a copy of the original agreement, they would have to provide the original Morgan Stanley agreement. 1MansQuest

yeh, thanks uptoneck. I suspected something like that. Strange they seem unable to connect the old account details to the new however, that's why I was pondering if there was any benefit to me. Anyway, I'm still awaiting their response to my SAR.

Davey77, thanks for the reply. I've sent them a SAR and await their response.

Currently challenging Marbles on the enforceability of their agreement, but struggling to get a copy of the original. I received the usual recent T&C’s and have advised them after three letters I'll go down the 31.16 route. Prior to this, I want show the court I’m being very reasonable, and so now have the option of a SAR, with a specific request for the original agreement. Here’s my dilemma, in their most recent letter, they advised the account number I was communicating to them was incorrect, and they indicated a different one. My number is 100% correct, but their number may also be correct, as I was due a replacement card due to expiry. So a few questions of interest: Why are they not able to make the connection between the two? What benefit is there to me, if any, in allowing them to continue referring to a different account number? Is my SAR a good idea at this time? Thanks for any advice.

Well Zhan, that was an experience! I was actually nervous just reading your words and awaiting the conclusion. The 'do you owe the money' moment makes me shudder. I can't imagine what would have happened had you said yes. A moral judgement against you perhaps? Ultimately, your focus upon enforceability from beginning to end remains paramount, and its a good lesson for all of us not to get sidelined by anything - we want the agreement, and or other documents to be presented to us in a lawfully executed state. Well done and thank you for returning your experience to the forum. 1MansQuest

I have sent Halifax a modified version of your letter and await their reply. Will post again in due course. Thanks again. 1MansQuest

Babydoll, I've read another thread you contributed to and a few others. I'm not entirely confident of my stance on this agreement because so many people have the same document and there is no consensus of opinion on enforceability. However, I am interested in the presentation of the prescribed terms. Do all prescribed terms need to 'headed' (e.g. Credit Limit) followed by the associated details? I ask this because all my terms and those of others are grouped under one header called "Important Financial Information". Am I being pedantic or is this important in relation to the CCA regs? I've also just noticed that my item numbers run from 1.1 to 1.6, then I have one solitary sentence referring to item 8.2! I checked my other t&C's received and there's no logical relationship between the two. 1MansQuest

Thanks for the reply BabyDoll, I've managed to upload the image now. I also find the agreement to be dubious - it just looks like something created out of parts of other documents. I also agree there needs to be some reference to the reverse page where the terms must reside, but is it the case that prescribed terms must reside on the signature page? My account was taken out in 2005.

Apologies - Photobucket website says its currently doing maintenance, so I've embedded the doc here. There is a seperate page of T&C's which I'll update shortly. Appreciate any opinion.

Been challenging Halifax to provide a copy of the original CCA. All they provided was a copy of the latest T&C's. Suddenly, they've now produced the following document which does bear my signature, and a second document containing the terms, which I presume were on the reverse. Has anyone seen this before and is it a legitimate agreement? Halifax pictures by 1mansquest - Photobucket

O.K, I'm going for the N244, now prepared and ready to submit. I note that I have to sign and date. Putting my ultra-cautious hat on, I presume this form will not be forwarded to C1, signature included? 1MansQuest

Its true they don't have to send you a copy of the signed original agreement, and what they have sent you conforms to the CCA regulations. However, if you were to come to court, they MUST present the original . This is typical behaviour but you need not be concerned. The next action is to issue them with a Subject Access Request, specifically requesting they supply you with a copy of the original agreement. The RBS admission is gold! I wish my creditors sent me letters like that! Have a look at the template section..there are many good example letters for each step you take. The Consumer Forums - Bank charges templates (consumer) 1MansQuest

OK, some very interesting points. So if a S127 won't necessarily get you the agreement, a CPR 31.16 won't necessarily get you the agreement, and a S.A.R won't necessarily get you the agreement, what's the point in any of them? I thought the S.A.R at the very least would force them to provide the document, particularly if I say "give me the original signed agreement and nothing else"! Can someone please explain why N244 carries more clout and when I should do this? Not to mention how.