What a week this has been! :o On Monday the 11th September, I delivered to the RBoS local branch, my prelim letter requesting repayment of my charges to that date, or at least up to August which was when I got the statements. The total including interest according to the advanced spreadsheet, was £999.08. On Monday 18th I got a letter from my local branch business manager saying the usual, that their charges were fair, transparent etc., and anyway the bank thought that the OFT ruling didn't apply to business accounts, but as a gesture of goodwill, he would refund some of the charges for the smaller amounts, no details given. I ignored it. On Wednesday 20th, I got a letter from headquarters in Edinburgh saying much the same thing, but without mention of any refund, and with a leaflet about the banking ombudsman. (Not even any use for the toilet, it's too hard and shiny!). I ignored it too. Yesterday was my birthday, not one of my best quite frankly. Today I had to take my wife back to the hospital at Ninewells to see the surgeon who rebuilt her hip, and I say rebuilt advisedly, since after being left for two years after it was worn out, (The NHS's doing, not ours!), there was very little pelvic bone left to attach the new cup to, and due to the degree of invasive treatment required for this procedure, it would appear that her recovery is going to be very slow and very painful. However, I digress, the post arrived before we left, just one letter from RBoS in Edinburgh saying all the same rubbish as before, the charges are fair, transparent and as per contract etc., but it went on to say that :- The Bank has considered the OFT's statement of 5th April 2006 and does not accept it's findings in relation to the setting of credit card and mortgage fees. We are concerned that the OFT has publicly called into question the setting of charges applied to other products, including including current accounts. The OFT has restricted it's investigation to credit cards and mortgages and made no attempt to consult with the RBS Group or the industry in relation to other entirely different products. Consequently, against this background, the Bank must differ with the views you have expressed and I am satisfied from my review that the interest and fees have been charged correctly, in line with the Bank's published tariff and are therefore rightly due. I also consider that the full amount outstanding, (my overdraft), which as at the date of this letter, stands at £****.**, is correct. Turning to your comments with regard to the bank registering a default against you on the above mentioned account, I regret I have no record of this and am unable to locate the registration of it at the Credit Reference Agencies. (Strange since I have a letter from the bank saying that they had done so!) I am prepared, as a gesture of goodwill, to refund £999.08 to your account as requested. This is not to be construed in any way as an admittance by the Bank with regard to the fees and charges applied. They then go on about recovery of my overdraft etc. Damn them!!!! I was just about to up the ante by putting in a claim for 29.7% compound interest on the 'unarranged borrowing' from me, which is exactly what the buzzards have been charging me, under the principle of reciprococity, it would nearly double what they now agreed to pay. Do I have to simply accept their offer, or can I stick my neck out, grab the offer but under the understanding that I will be persuing them for the interest, and carry on with a claim for the extra 29.7%? An informed opinion would be appreciated by Monday please

Well it appears I may have been too late getting them to stop the default notice, I got a letter from them this morning requiring repayment in full of my overdraft or an acceptable offer of repayment. Since this arose because my overdraft was over it's limit because of their unlawful charges and interest, hence I could not use the account, therefore the account usage did not justify the overdraft etc. etc. etc. Is this any reason not to proceed as planned?

Vampiress, Hello, first, let me say thanks for posting the spreadsheets, they are extremely helpful. I downloaded the Scotland advanced for excel, (I actually use open Office, but it opens and works fine), and I started filling in data. At line 41 however, it stopped calculating. So I un-hid the hidden columns and copied and pasted special, (formulas, formatting etc.) down to line 770 which I gathered from the notes, was where you had formatted it to. After which, each line was seen to do something though the interest was not incrementing as I thought it should. Then I noticed that the totals at the top were static, on checking the formulae, I found they were not looking past row 41, so I changed them to 770 and the problem seemed solved. However, on the last, interest page, it only went to line 44, so a copy/paste seemed to solve that, but I checked also the subtotals which also only went to 44, but though changed to the new 770, the subtotals and totals refuse to update. Am I missing something, or did I get a corrupt or modified copy of the sheet? Any thoughts would be appreciated

Thanks a lot, wife and I are both disabled, and with her just out of hospital and only slightly mobile with 2 crutches, 24 hours just aren't enough to get a day's chores done. True, she is slowly getting better, but it will be some time before I can find enough time to sleep as well. I'll go have a look at the thread you mentioned, thanks again.

Hello all, I'm sorry I just disappeared like that, but my wife had to go into hospital for major surgery. She is now home and convalescing slowly, but well enough so that I have found time to get back to this problem. On top of all the rest, this latter forced inactivity has triggered the bank into going for a default notice, they are saying that there has been insufficient turnover on the account to justify the overdraft. My attitude being that it was only their charges and interest charges that put the account over it's limit so I couldn't use it. Whatever, I have sent them the standard S10 letter incase they have not got the default notice yet, and I have also sent them the preliminary request for repayment and the copy of my calculations. There however, lies a small problem.The Scottish advanced spreadsheet seems to have a few problems. For a start, though it says it is set up for 770 lines, it is only set up for 41 lines on sheet 2 and 44 lines on sheet 3. The subtotals are also faulty in that they don't do what they say they should because they are only set to add up 41 lines. I changed that OK, but some of the totals are not that simple using as they do, a hidden range of cells, and some weird accounting logic. The only other problems I found were in deducing what dates to input in the sheet in sheet 3 I4 & I6. Any assistance forthcoming for a weary old man would be greatly appreciated.

If you check my thread at the end, there is some discussion of calculating interest charges. Any charge that was levvied say 5 years ago is obviously going to cost you extra interest every month since then if you are in overdraft, since ever since your balance has been low by the amount of that charge. If like me, your bank moves to a higher rate when you exceed your O/D limit, ie from base + 5% to 29.5%, then the cumulative total of the extra interest charged by the bank if the charges of old have put you over your limit can actually amount to far more than the original charges. The older your charges are, the more interest is charged pro rata, but in a worst case scenario where most of your charges are old and your account has been permanently up and down around the O/D limit, the interest could easily amount to far more than the actual charges. See what happens to your account for example if you remove the unlawful charges. If the balance drops below the high interest level and stays there until further unlawful charges kick it over the top again, then it is quite possible that wrongfully charged interest could be twice the cost of the charges, don't forget also that these excess interest charges also boost your deficit even further so attracting even more high interest. There is a spreadsheet noted that trys to calculate a rough interest amount, but the only way to do this accurately is to sit down with paper, pencil and calculator and a list of the bankrates for the last 5 years. That may be a bit much even for me, but if many of your charges are old ones, it could be sound financial sense. Sorry if I seem to be hi-jacking your thread, I won't do it again, but I thought it could be useful to you.

Sorry friend, I was not intending any agravation whatever. I know all about the financial problems since I also have them, following my heart attack last year when I had to close my business, I have been supporting myself and wife and £9000 overdraft on incapacity benefit of around £65 a week. Also since my illness means I tend to sleep rather a lot, I am only properly awake and alert for about 4 or 5 hours a day. The point I was making, was that I have only so far found one thing that I haven't been able to get coverage on in the FAQs and threads, and my case is a scottish business account which is not exactly standard. Any incongruities I have found so far I have been able to resolve by further research in the threads, and the basic procedures and letter templates are surely pretty well documented. I think that the basic key to success in these ventures, is confidence. Basically the banks are playing a game of call my bluff, and if you don't have the confidence to call their bluff you will lose big time. I'm aware that some people find this learning curve simple, unfortunately I'm not one of them, but I won't let it beat me, I'll keep going through this site until I have it all straight in my mind if it takes a year, and then I'll nail the bu**ers. Longer it takes, the more the interest piles up, so who cares! I do respect the right of the operators of this site to have a life of their own however, so I feel quite strongly that we should only start questioning the moderators and admin personnel when absolutely certain that the answers aren't already here. Having hosted a computer service website for some years and also serving as a resident expert on computers at the AllExperts.com website for many years, I'm quite aware just how much a few questions can eat into your time and patience, especially if you have already taken the trouble to post the answers on your site. I grant you that in trying to be all things to all people, this site manages to hide the information we need pretty well, but it is there, just rather hidden at times. The problem being that the people who have the knowledge know it themselves too well, and sometimes leave out parts which they take for granted, but which leaves us floundering in the dark. The missing parts can be found of course by reading related articles where the authors have left out different parts but included the bits that were missed out in the first article. This is I admit a chore but is also necessary, if you need help with anything of that order feel free to ask me, but be advised that I'm no Einstein when it comes to this subject. I'm good with computers, but not with money and the law, but I am learning. Probably too little and too late, but I'm getting there:cool:

Good luck to you, and when you win, grasp them warmly by the throat and shake vigorously!

Ok, further research suggests that I won't be able to recover any of the O/D fees/charges, at least, not easily, but it would seem that some banks make a charge for exceeding the O/D limit. Well I never had that, but I was hammered for interest, any time the O/D went over the limit my interest rate went up to 29.5%! I assume that if the charges etc. hadn't pushed me over the limit, since I wouldn't have been on the high interest rate, I should be able to claim back that interest, however, the statements do not break down the interest into it's individual components, do I have to do a DPA letter to the bank asking for a breakdown of all the interest paid over the 5 years? Is there any way to shortcut the amount of work involved in looking up bank interest rates and working up a complete new account over the last 5 years because the few charges applied 5 years ago together with the extra interest charged, will ripple forward through the years, reducing the totals all along the way, and further reducing the interest through to date. Because of this bank's differential interest policy, the charges could amount to the smallest part of the damage caused, the cumulative effect of the high interest rate could easily double or even treble the amount of the charges. Nowhere that I have looked so far has mentioned this effect so I'm wondering if I've missed something or have I actually found a new wrinkle. All comments would be gratefully received before I get stuck in to what could be a very heavy week's work.:o

Hi, I don't see any real reason why not. The fact that the bank acted against you doesn't void the fact that they acted unlawfully in levying punitive chrges against you in the first place. In fact, it sounds as though this may have been damaging to your business, therefore after demonstrating that the charges were unlawfull by reclaiming them, you may well be able to prove that these unlawful charges were detrimental and damaging to you personally, and sue them for damages as well. I suggest checking the FAQs, and other threads in this group, I know there is more information there, I found it while doing my own research. You may also be able to show that it was only the unlawful charges which resulted in the defaulting and the debt collection agency being involved, in which case you should also apply to have the default removed, and reclaim all costs associated with the debt collection agency etc. too. Best of luck.

Hi, I have had an account with RBoS since around 2001 which was a sole trader business account. I ran my own computer business and survived so so until last year when I had a heart attack which forced the closing of the business. The main source of business funding was a business overdraft which of course grew as did the business, and now stands at around £9,000. Following a trip south in March to bury my father, I returned to find that my account had gone from £100 under my OD limit to £375 over that limit, and that the only two DDs to be paid (£55) were unpaid.:? At that point, or soon after, I discovered this site, and started investigating. Believe me, I have read the FAQs, three times right through, and I have also read through many threads in this section, (over 50%), and while I have a tested IQ of 147, there are a few things I remain unsure of since I can find no mention of them anywhere so far. I have checked through all my statements since 2001, (I just asked my bank and they mailed them to me in just 4 days!), I find charges can be broken down into 3 classes. First the standard account charges for paying in and withdrawing money, DDs Cheques etc. This group seems in order, and is quite legal I guess, the charge being about 50p per transaction. The second group is referrals, unpaid cheques and DDs, charges ranging from £25 up to £90 and is I feel unlawful. So far no problem, but now there is a gray area, Overdraft arrangement fees. This commenced at a swingeing £100 in 2001, and was repeated in 2002 for a renewal or maintenance fee. This has been repeated at intervals increasingly frequently, 3 times in as many months, and has hiked up to £150. Although these are listed as charges, they are obviously not really penalty charges, or are they, I don't know, but if they are service charges I would have felt that they are rather excessive. My query is, do I have a case to challenge these as well. The class 2 charges for the 5 years total £1003.05 where the O/D charges total over £1200. :o I am quite happy about the procedures but rather uncertain about just how much of the charges I can look to recover. Does anyone have any experience of this?

Hi Nicola, The best way to get started is to read ALL the FAQs and as many of the threads as you can spare the time for. There are a number of dedicated folks here, (Not me I hasten to add, I'm just here to do the same as you), and they have arranged this site as an aid to recovering your money for you. Virtually all the information you will require is available in the FAQs and letter templates, spreadsheets and sundry other things are also available in the Library. I have spent over a week so far just browsing the FAQs and threads, trying to get a real feel for the procedures and trying to work out all the possible pitfalls, since I have all my statements for the last 5 years, I reckon to be ready to commence in the next week or so. Since I doubt you do have all that information, you will need to send your bank the DPA latter (In the library) to request that information, and note, that it gives the bank 40 days to comply, so you will then have plenty of time to browse this site and get your fiduciary education! As I said, almost everything you need to know can be found on the site here in the FAQs, but if you genuinely can't find something, post here in your thread and someone will be sure to have an answer for you. Best of luck:p

Hi, yes there are others reading this thread, I have just read it in it's entirety, and it occurs to me that if you put a little more effort into reading the FAQs and other folk's threads, you would have far less questions which have already been answered on this site, and a lot more confidence in what you are doing. I for example have spent over a week just reading all the threads and FAQs while considering my next move, while you have been asking questions which are all answered in the FAQs. This site is basically a self help group, these good folks donate their time to help us all, but they can't do it individually, so I'm afraid you just have to sift out the information you need yourself. If the information you need is genuinely not there, I'm sure they will be first in line to assist, but meanwhile please don't 'hog the trough' , give the rest a chance too. I'm not trying to be nasty or 'holier than thou', but I recognise in you all the symptoms which I suffer from too and have to work hard to avoid. Any way, best of luck with your action, I'll look back to see how it turns out.

As a Red Dwarf fan from way back, I must confess a great liking for the imagery invoked. I suppose however, we are getting a trifle off-topic?

I suspect that if my analysis of that person was anywhere near correct, that he / she would have been intellectually aware of the impossibility of winning, and at the same time, equally aware of the psychological dangers inherant in losing. So an inherantly unstable situation existed. One can only hope he/she managed to resolve it without too much problem.

Hi guys-n-gals, I'm somewhat new to this forum business, in fact this is my first ever post to such a thing. In fact I'm what is colloquially referred to as a silver surfer, though I have been a computer technician for over 35 years. Anyway, the foregoing is by way of background to apologise for any gaffes I may make/have made. The point is that I came to this site first time the day before yesterday, and have been avidly trawling the forums ever since, I have already requested statements back to 2001, and am looking forward to a little of what was good for the goose. Since reading through the whole 11 pages of this thread, it occurs to me that it is quite possible that if 2 minds, was to accept that the bank's system of charges were indeed unlawful, (Which it seems they are), then it follows that a large part of 2 mind's job is also unlawful, and that 2 minds has caused an awful lot of unlawful grief for a lot of people. Personally, I would noy be able to live with myself in that situation, and would at the very least, have to quit that particular job. It seems that 2 minds is an intelligent and rational person in most ways, but when it comes to the core fact that the banks, are acting unlawfully, (and therefore 2mind's position is also of questionable lawfulness), then intelligence and rationality seem to depart at great speed, and are replaced with numerous specious examples of plumbers and parking fines. It occurs to me that this person is far too intelligent to believe any of the guff she put forward in defence. It was so obviously in totally different categories to the case in point, that my great grandson would have laughed it out of contention. I can only assume therefore, that 2 minds, is persistantly trying to convince herself that the banks are doing no wrong, an attempt which is logically doomed to failure, and I would suggest that she considers a career change and some councilling before the schizophrenia mentioned earlier in the thread becomes less of a pun than the real thing. (This is a serious warning/suggestion, and I intend no slur to any person or persons who may or may not read this post)