That’s very helpful thank you. I’ll see what the next few weeks bring...

I can’t remember - it was 2006, I have trouble remembering what I did last week that was all they sent, the T&Cs page they sent didn’t look like it was part of the original document. I also had a current account with them and loans that were repaid before I got in to financial difficulties. the current account was joint with my husband - we had an overdraft which wasn’t t repaid. Cabot have this too and frequently get confused and mix up the two amounts in letters. The amount varies drastically- they seem to have forgotten it was a joint account as well. I sent a ‘I do not acknowledge this account’ letter to them (Cabot) initially, not a CCA, regarding the CC a few weeks ago following a letter from them threatening legal action and they sent me a letter regarding the current account! Totally different amount and account number! Lots of reference to dates I didn’t recognise and no paperwork to back it up?! i don’t trust them. Do I just ignore this and wait to see what their next move will be? Sorry for taking up your time, thank you for looking at it all.

Yes my signature and the correct address at the time, part of it anyway - the rest was hidden under the sticky note I'm guessing. Ok so it is a copy of the CCA?

Thanks dx yes it is the FD cc. The last payment I made was in June 2018. I have scanned the 'agreement' which looks an awful lot like an application form - this is exactly how I was sent it but with all personal details erased. It also had a statement of payments (of £1 per month since January 2009, which I've not scanned as it's just pages of £1 payments. I only ever paid the £1 to first direct and never changed the payment details, despite regular requests to change it - they clearly got them all anyway. They all have my correct address now. FD_agreement.pdf

Hi I have recently received a copy of my CCA for an old HSBC CC debt. This was apparently bought by Marlin in 2014 and I had previously (before it was sold to Marlin!) asked for a copy of CCA so it was in dispute. All had gone quiet until February this year. This is all complicated by the fact that in 2008 I was advised by Payplan to offer token payments to everyone. I paid these by standing order and had actually forgotten about them. These continued until 2018 - I know! So it's not SB and wont be for a while Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Cabot (claiming to be acting for Marlin - same company!) have appeared again with several letters so far and have recently involved their legal arm (Mortimer Clarke solicitors). After sending them a CCA last Friday, as they were once again threatening legal action, today I was sent a copy of a CCA, the print was dated February 20 interestingly. The time they decided to contact me again. I am prepared to go to court over this if necessary. I can only pay what I can afford. As I owe a lot to other companies, some of who may have given up - I've only had a pre court letter earlier this year from MBNA who I asked for a copy of the CCA and heard nothing since, I really don't know where I stand with repaying any debts. I don't know what I owe or to who anymore. I have limited funds at the end of each month despite working full time. I had a small payout for PPI which I was considering putting towards the debts but was advised not to! Now as a lot of them have gone quiet again (for now) I don't want to get in touch with them. With the CCA which all looks as it should. They (Mortimer Clarke) have enclosed an income and expenditure form which they have asked me to complete in 14 days. The total amount is £3 k. What should I do now? I wonder why this has only just appeared after all this time. I can't give them £3k as I don't have it. If I did have it, then that wouldn't be fair to the other people I owe money to. I am tempted to just ignore it and wait for them to take me to court I've just looked again at the CCA and it looks like whoever has photocopied it has stuck a 'post-it' note over the credit limit and repayment details, so obscuring a lot of the wording on the form.

Quite! I have not tried to avoid paying the debts. I just have not had the money to repay them and now I am not 100% sure who I even owe the money to - they've been passed on that many times. I guess CAB etc advise people as best they can. At the time I thought I should take their advice. I also had pressure from family members who probably knew even less about it all than I did, 'must avoid being taken to court and getting CCJs at all costs'! I would do things differently now, and wouldn't get in to debt. I don't even have a credit card to my name these days but hindsight is a wonderful thing

Doing it myself - PP apparently didn't deal with token payments only payment plans, they just helped with the initial letters etc. I know I'm an idiot. After setting up the standing orders - I just left them to run. I am pretty sure I didn't stop them until 2019 which is even worse! I'm well aware of the fact that they won't be statute barred until 2025. I am getting all the threat-o-grams again since stopping the payments, which I expected. Most of them have been passed to several different DCAs over the years, while in dispute although I suppose by paying them they are not in dispute? I don't know. I have still been burying my head in the sand over it all if I'm honest, and trying to keep them from taking me to court. The one that's worrying me is the Egg Loan one that I've had no recent paperwork for that I'm pretty sure hasn't written to me since 2010, they were part of my initial token payments but I cancelled the standing order as I thought that was the debt bought by Apex, so that might have been as late as 2013. I have also had recent offers from almost every DCA, some offering me a 40% discount off my balance if I settle with them. I had a pre-court letter from one of them (MBNA - letter from Shoosmiths) but I have asked for a copy of the credit card agreement, which I have not yet received. That was towards the end of last year.

Yes dx I did know about this debt but somehow get confused and thought the one that was passed to Apex was this one, it wasn't. That related to a different Egg account. It was only on sorting through all of the paperwork that I realised my mistake. I paid them all token payments until 2018 as that was what I had been advised initially by CAB/ Payplan back in 2008. When you have someone advising you one thing, other people saying if you pay them something then they won't take you to court - something I was terrified of at the time. Not now though, bring it on, I would just rather they don't go down the 'backdoor CCJ' route.

Thank you for replying. Yes I did receive a default notice from Egg in October 2008. I think at some point in time I got this debt confused with one that was passed to Apex, but that related to a different Egg account, this one just slipped through the net.

Hi I have been sorting through all of my paperwork as a lot of DCAs are contacting me frantically since I stopped paying token payments in 2018 (I ignore them). They have stepped things up since Christmas so I decided to at least collate everything in order of debt, it's taken a while. All of my debts are old, relating to 2008/9. I was advised by my local CAB in 2008 to pay token payments, which I did. I lost track of who had which debt, and it all got very confusing, I was suffering with stress and on anti-depressants, my head was all over the place. I moved house and last year decided to try to sort things. I was advised on here to let the DCAs know my current address and to stop paying them! I must have missed one somehow as while sorting out the mountain of paperwork relating to debts, I have found long lost Egg Loan paperwork (last correspondence in 2010), at that time it had been passed from Egg to Mackenzie Hall. I have not paid anything on this debt since around 2010. They never produced a credit agreement, or rather they did but it related to a previous (repaid) egg loan! I have moved house twice since 2010. Obviously they did not have my change of address as I had totally forgotten about that one. I regularly check my credit file and no CCJs have appeared (yet). My question is, what do I do? It could be that it was passed on again but I've not received any letters. It must by now be statute barred but how do I find out who has this debt without the clock restarting? I am suddenly in a panic, I literally have every bit of paperwork for everything except that. If anyone can advise what, if anything I should do it would be greatly appreciated/ Thanks and sorry for long-winded post. Mum2Four

No problem - yes I have followed your advice - letters sent The Catalogue debt - Simply Be (JD Williams) was around £300 back in 2008, they have never registered a default on my credit file, they have recorded that I have paid £1 a month but my account says 'up to date'. If they had recorded the account as defaulted when everyone else did it would have disappeared from my file 4 years ago Is there anything I can do (apart from pay the balance - which would not be fair to the others?)?

Thank you for the response - I swear I started a new post so not sure how my old posts found their way here. The old posts are not particularly relevant as my question related to full and final offers, not the situation I was in ten years ago although the debts remain the same I am sure people are quite capable of finding old posts from my profile should they so wish? Sorry, it's made it quite hard to find your reply - and people probably think I am nuts for regurgitating a ten year old post! (which I didn't!) Also what do I do about the catalogue debt that was never - although they have accepted reduced payments for ten years (now stopped) they had never placed a default on my credit file? Thank you, any help appreciated

Hi I realised my debts were out of hand around ten years ago. All were unsecured loans & credit cards. Since then I have been paying a token payment to all of them (13 creditors) - I found this forum, but still continued with the token payments with the mind set of 'it keeps them off my back' - it's pretty much worked but is not a permanent solution. I CCA'd all, one eventually came back saying they wouldn't pursue me for the debt and the account would be closed. 1 out of 13! I continued with the token payments as I was too afraid of what might happen, silly I know! All but one of my debts have dropped off my credit file. The one that hasn't is Simply Be, a catalogue to who I owed the least amount of money, but advice from pay plan was to treat them all the same and offer token payments which I did. They still show on my credit file and looks like they have never 'defaulted' my account. Financially my situation is not improved, however I have recently got around to reclaiming PPI (most of my cards didn't have it, but two loans did) and now have a small lump sum. I received a letter from one (creditor) saying they would uphold my PPI claim but as I had debts with them they would suggest I use this towards my debt, despite the fact they sold my debt on?! My question really is do I offer full & final offers to the 12 remaining creditors even though only one still shows on my file? I owe £27K and only have £3.5K available, a drop in the ocean! Is there anything I can do about the one that still shows on my file - is this even allowed, why did they not default me when I started the token payments in 2008? I have also moved house several times, so it does worry me that I could be taken to court and not know about it - should I write to the DCAs (all debts are with DCAs and not the original creditor) and tell them where I am, will that start a flurry of attempted 'collection activity' all over again? It's quite nice not receiving any letters or phone calls I don't know what to do really - I just did one of those budget sheets from a free debt advice company and still have nothing left each month Worryingly my credit score (with several companies) is amazing - it really shouldn't be - I would never lend money to me! Am I worrying over nothing, I think i've just got used to it - I know the debts haven't gone away, they can't provide the credit agreements so they are technically unenforceable but because I stupidly have continued to pay token payments they won't be statute barred. I was hoping I might have won the lottery by now but no such luck Any help/ advice would be much appreciated (sorry for the rambling post!). Mum2Four

With regard to the wage overpayment, I used to work in a payroll department of a large organisation (public sector, without being too obvious!) and as with most large payrolls (in excess of 30,000 staff) mistakes happen (often not notified of leaving dates, hours decreases etc). Our stance on collection of overpayments was generally to write to inform the person then negotiate repayment with them - taking into account what they could afford, and even the ones we were pretty sure knew they were overpaid and could afford to repay the amount (as they we aware it was happening in most cases before it was even picked up by anyone else) were allowed to repay in installments. We also had a few decide to leave the country to avoid repayment, in which case I think they were referred to collection agencies - but how they got on I have no idea! The Payroll/ HR departments are generally sympathetic to individual circumstances - most people have no idea how much money they should be paid each month so therefore do not notice when overpayments are made. I was overpaid while working for said Payroll Department, but knew as soon as I saw my payslip so paid it back right away - I couldn't have claimed I'd not realised! Have you spoken to anyone in the department with regard to paying back the money? I assume this happened after the job had ended? (usually the case!). As has been mentioned above, if you explain your circumstances then £1 a month would be acceptable particularly if the payments had been swallowed up with bank charges etc. Depends how reasonable the managers in HR/ Payroll are. Mum2Four

Hi nickswansea I am in a similar positon regarding simply be/ reliable collections. They've not produced a valid CCA but I am paying all my creditors £1 a month (as advised by the CAB and payplan) in any case. Reliable collections claimed they could only accept £4 a month at first but I stood my ground and eventually they accepted the £1 payments. I owe them such a small amount in the great scheme of things and all the other creditors were fine with £1 a month. If I had the money I'd have paid them as I am sure is the case with you. Remember you can only pay them what you can reasonably afford, if both of you are unemployed this is £1 a month and no more. I have invited them to take me to court in the past but sadly they declined and instead accepted the £1 payments I was offering, strange that! Don't ever speak to them on the 'phone either. Insist on everything in writing. Good luck! Mum2Four

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on this one, I also have been dealing with Metropolitan/HSBC regarding a First Direct credit card and bank account overdraft. I had the 'letter tennis' quite early on, letters very similar to yours in reply from Metropolitan - including the request for a signature when their letter has an indecipherable signature and no printed name, also a letter asking if we would sign (errrr no!) to give permission for them to combine the two accounts (bank account overdraft - joint, credit card - mine only), needless to say, we didn't do this - my other half isn't too happy about the overdraft he knew nothing about as it is let alone also being liable for my credit card! To cut a very long story short I have been paying token payments (all we can afford) since 2008. I get a letter about the credit card every six months or so asking for an increase in payments, at which point I explain that our situation remains the same.... and so it goes on. The worrying thing is although I have been paying the token payment for the bank account overdraft for the same length of time, we have heard nothing at all - since refusing to provide them with a signature over two years ago. My husband was very disappointed as he was enjoying the letter tennis - fine for him, this is the only debt he has, whereas I have lots to deal with! Interestingly the letters for the credit card have gone from being sent from HSBC/First Direct to Metropolitan Collection Services Limited to 'DG Solicitors' (threat-o-gram from HSBC's 'in house' solicitors) to 'Central Debt Recovery Unit' - if you look them up they are Metropolitan Collection Services Limited (the in house debt collectors for HSBC), they wouldn't be trying the old scare tactics would they? Surely not! Also no CCA received at all, nothing! To be honest short of winning the lottery (fingers crossed!) I will never be in a position to repay the total amount in any case, so I will continue to pay a token each month. I am definitely not of the 'wont pay' way of thinking because if I had they money I would repay it, but I haven't so I can't. I agree that it helps to co operate with Metropolitan (or whatever else they like to call themselves) as they are HSBC (albeit the 'naughty step' section!), as far as is sensible. Obviously do not sign letters or provide them with your signature, as that's just silly. I will watch this thread with interest, in the meantime I need a new file as the mountain of paperwork from this mob has broken mine - always good to have a paper trail 'just in case'. Good luck!

Hi wilchil64 I think this whole thread is proof that CAG helps people, you have gone from desperation to being a lot more 'in control' of your debt situation. We also considered trying to sell our house initially when things got really bad, luckily there were people on-hand to advise us that the chance of 'losing the house' which was our main worry was actually fairly unlikely given the debts are all in my name and not my husband's and we have four children under the age of 16, add to that the fact that although I owe a lot overall (30K) the most I owe to an individual creditor is around £6000 the rest being much less. Most of the advice on here is good and constructive and while I realise that poster meant well it's one thing suggesting you don't get animals when you are in a financial state but to suggest getting rid of those you already have is a little uncalled for! Most people are sensible enough once they get to the 'oh no, we are in a financial mess' stage to realise that there have to be cutbacks. We didn't have an extravagant lifestyle anyway but have still cut back a lot, and to be honest I don't miss being able to spend what I don't have. If I don't have the money we go without. As long as we can pay the bills and afford food everyone's happy. They love homecooked food, which is just as well as that's all they get, I am constantly baking and cooking. Sometimes it's hard, having no spare money, but the children understand we can't go on holiday like their friends do, it's one of those things. Hopefully all this will make them careful with money when they get older, and away from those evil credit cards! When we first visited the CAB in a state of despair (before discovering these forums) we asked lots of questions and soon realised although things were bad they could be worse and most things we had worried about we had no need, as any action taken by the creditors would be 'way down the line'. We changed our bank account to a basic one with another bank early on as we hadn't realised the need for an 'umbrella' account, some of my creditors were linked to our then bank account. Discovering CAG has been a real lifeline for me, I have a huge file full of paperwork but I know where everything is relating to each creditor/ DCA, all have been CCA'd, all are getting their token payments and have done from the start. I can't do more than that. I can tell from your posts that things are slowly improving, not as desperate as in the beginning. I know it takes time - I am only 3 years into it and still have days where it all gets too much, but I know I am doing my best and that's all I can do, and the same goes for you. Be strong, you are definitely not alone!

Hi Em I have been through a very similar situation - well still in it actually! The key thing is you have realised you need to sort it out, and this site is brilliant for advising you. Many of us have been through it, many of us are still dealing with the effects of debt. My debt is around £30,000 in total to around a dozen or so creditors. I too hid all this from my husband - he knew we had some debts but not that much! The worst thing was having to tell him, actually worse than having to deal with any debt collection agencies so I do know how you must feel. We decided to get some advice from the CAB initially, although as we have no disposable income there was not much they could do for us but they at least explained that for unsecured debts (loans, credit cards etc) the baliffs would not be knocking just yet - they have to take you to court first (we didn't know this and were in a state of panic!). To cut a long story short we were put in touch with payplan (they offer free advice) who were able to take down all the details over the phone and prepare some letters to send to the creditors offering them all a token monthly payment. This was in 2008 and so it continues. Still paying £1 a month to them all, most of the debts are passed from one debt collection agency to another but that seems usual, we can't pay what we don't have - and neither can you. Don't beat yourself up about it. Gather all the information you need, do not ignore it, look around this site regarding sending CCA requests etc and empower yourself. It's not easy and there's no 'quick fix' but facing up to it is the first step. Make sure you pay all your 'priority debts' (Mortgage or rent, council tax, utilities), unsecured debt can be dealt with and the advice on these forums in excellent for doing this. From personal experience my husband was devasted when I told him, but eventually he admitted that he was partly to blame as ignorance is not really an excuse. He should have asked how we could afford this and that but chose to ignore the situation. I was in denial about how much we were struggling but so was he! I also blamed myself for a while, every debt is in my name after all but it wasn't just me who spent too much money. I stupidly thought that I could manage. It wasn't until I was dipping into the overdraft every month and still only paying minimum payments on all my debts that I realised it couldn't continue, eventually I could not even afford to pay for childcare, meaning I couldn't work. That was when it all came to a head and I had to break the news to my husband. Almost three years down the line it is still a struggle but I have no credit cards, no loans (and such a bad credit rating we will probably never borrow money again!) we have cut back on everything but the good thing about the advice from payplan is they help you produce a realistic 'income and expenditure' list, when faced with this it became clear how these debts had mounted up - we had no surplus income at all, even while I was working! I felt very stupid but also relieved that I was facing up to it and trying to deal with it. A cliche I know but there IS light at the end of the tunnel. Lots of people on here will give you good advice. Please do not panic and please do not feel to blame. It happens! Mum2Four

Well surprise, surprise! M&S Money have written to me saying that the application form they have sent me IS a valid CCA etc etc (errrr no it isn't!), in the meantime CSL have written to say they will continue to accept a token payment to be reviewed in six months, they also asked me to fill out a 'standing order form' which had to be signed (?!) and returned to them (surely they mean a 'Direct Debit' then!), but I wasn't falling for that one and instead will continue to pay M&S Money as I have been (no 'notice of assignment' as yet and the 'CCA' was sent by M&S Money NOT CSL). I am doing this now with all my creditors, which is fine as it's all I can pay (I was advised to do this by the Citizens Advice people). I guess what they hope is that my circumstances will eventually improve and they will get the money - one day. I hope so too but in reality, when I've been looking for a job for three years and still no luck, other than that elusive lottery win I doubt this will ever happen. Still, it's not like I have anything better to do than play letter tennis for now. Plus if these ever do go to court none have a valid CCA anyway, although no doubt by the time they take me to court it will probably all have changed again and they wont need one, knowing my luck!

I don't know if this is any use or not but I have also had an egg loan passed to various DCA's and passed back again, currently with Apex. They've not produced a valid agreement as yet, and I never have seen a 'letter of assignment' from Egg so it tends to be a case of letter tennis until they pass it back to Egg again. The thing is I can only offer a token payment to any creditors anyway due to my circumstances, so the original creditors are all fully aware of this and I must admit to finding it quite funny when another template threat-o-gram turns up. 'Here we go again!' I owe a fair bit of money to a large number of creditors but individually probably not enough for them to bother with, although I always expect court letters to turn up at some point. Egg were always the worst for calling at all hours, but changing my phone number stopped that. I have been in this situation for nearly 3 years, so am kind of getting used to it all now. I can't pay what I don't have. I would also be interested to know if Egg have gone down the CCJ route with anyone here yet.

Hi ajs444 I have received the same - copy of chargecard application form, once again and again this has been sent direct from M&S not via CSL, I was under the impression that once a DCA had 'bought' a debt it was them that had to provide the correct documentation? Maybe I am wrong - I think M&S are just employing the DCA's (this is the third one for me so far!) to do their dirty work, a pointless exercise in my case - I really wish I could magic the money out of thin air but sadly not and any amount of threat-o-grams/DCA's/ Court letters etc wont change a thing - I can't pay what I do not have and they do not have a valid agreement anyway I so love having to write pointless letters to DCA's, it gives meaning to my life! I have thanked M&S Money for sending a copy of a chargecard agreement but asked that they send a copy of the credit card agreement that I requested please Will keep you posted. Mum2Four

Hi ajs444 I have just had the same letter from credit security limited regarding an M&S Money account - which has been passed from one DCA to another for 2 years, one pretended to have a CCA but it was the chargecard application form NOT the credit card (shock!) now it appears to have been passed to this lot, I have CCA'd them, just - so will see what happens next. I have heard about CSL's tactics, they don't appear to be very nice people to deal with, not that any DCA's are but they appear to think they can scare people into 'phoning them. As you say 'the merry-go-round' starts again! Thought they'd all been a bit quiet

Hi Yes they do try to get you to call them back - ignore those too!! Send this letter; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/letter-templates/131250-dca-creditor-harassment-telephone.html which should do the trick, however I have now changed my phone number after two years of having to ignore the phone, telling the children to ignore certain numbers etc. I should have done it in the first place - now no one phones, peace at last! (ex-directory too, although it was before!). I feel better about it just for the fact I am now in control, albeit still in debt. I think most of them are happy for you to at least be paying something, if my circumstances change then I will pay more and hopefully clear them one day, I live in hope!!

Hi It's been a while since I posted, Two years ago I found myself in a position of being unable to continue juggling my debts and had to admit to myself, my husband and family that I could no longer cope with it all. I had fallen into the trap of thinking I could afford to repay all the debt I had accumulated when really I was just moving it around and not achieving anything! The crunch came when I had to stop working due to lack of childcare provision in my area I was forced to look at all my outgoings and finally faced up to the fact there was a lot more going out than there was coming in! I discovered these forums and it was brilliant, to know I wasn't alone and that I could fight back and not just accept the bullying from the creditors, as lets face it you do feel guilty of having borrowed so much initially so tend to accept the bullying as the way it is. I don't now. It's not my fault they were throwing money at me, I was gullible enough to think I could repay it all - they could see my credit history, not just the fact that up until then everything was up to date, the fact I had so much debt should have alerted them surely?! No, they were too greedy and chose to ignore the obvious. I have recently checked my credit record (Experian) and found that according to that I don't owe as much as I thought. Where has it gone? I had a total of 13 creditors initially, all were informed of my financial difficulties straightaway by me in writing along with income and expenditure form. I contacted Payplan who said as I didn't have any income left with which to pay my creditors I should offer £1 a month to each of them. This I did. All have been CCA'd, most have come back with nothing. I have had debts forwarded from one DCA to another, most are now owned by crapquest but they don't seem to be able to realise that if I can't repay one debt then it's very unlikely I will be able to repay 5 others as well. My credit record now shows 4 debts sold to DCA's (original creditor not mentioned); CL (Lewis Group bought two GE Money accounts totalling £4000), Hillesden Securities/DLC (bought Argos card debt £350) only one of the crapquest debts is showing (was MBNA £3800), two HSBC (First Direct) debts still showing (defaults) totalling £5000, M&S Money (£6000) also showing as no payments despite saying 'arrangement' and I have been paying £1 a month. I have no idea where the other 'debts' have gone. 13 orignially, now 7? Surely they should show on my credit record as defaults but they have vanished! No idea what is going on there. I have sent hundereds of letters over the past two years and I am no where near as stressed as I was about it all back then. I can't pay what I do not have! I keep a good filing system of each creditor and all DCA's they then pass that debt to so I have enough info for when/ if anyone takes me to court. I am still not working, but hoping to return next year when my youngest children will no longer need childcare, if I do get a job I will set up a payment plan to pay off my debts - they are all MY debts which is one good thing as any equity in the house (none as far as I know!) is only half mine if things do get that far I can argue my case. My husband knew nothing of the extent of my debts until two years ago, and telling him was worse than dealing with any DCAs. For anyone at the start of all this, the first step is facing up to it. It wont be easy but CAG has some answers, some good letter templates and we've all been there. Don't speak to any of the DCA's on the phone, there's no point. Send the telephone harassment letter to all of them. Above all don't panic! There are lots of procedures these people must go through before you can get taken to court for unsecured debts. If there's no court order there's no baliffs. No one is allowed to turn up on your doorstep and demand money or posessions!! We didn't know this until we discovered CAG. I do still worry. It wont go away and there's no quick fix. I still hope of winning the Lotto but what are the chances?!! The best thing to do is deal with the letters you receive accordingly, don't ignore anything, gather all the information you need and play the waiting game. Good Luck!

They can never find a valid cca to my knowledge!! I am currently dealing with reliable collections (re: simply be catalogue) and have been since 2008, letter tennis? exactly! They have been phoning my home in excess of 15 times a day despite sending the 'telephone harassment' letter too, numpties! Oh and I also had a letter from 'S Beat' around 18 months ago. I might start charging them for letters I have sent since 2008, there have been many!