When I contacted the FOS recently I was told that they hadn't heard back from CB but they would contact me as soon as they did. I haven't even got to the point of asking for interest but I want it. This has been going on since April 2006 (pity the interest couldn't be applied from then). I keep watching George's thread hoping he gets a result. It's a bit wearing waiting and waiting. You feel it is never going to end. Mel5

I've been corresponding with Rachel Scott of the FOS who because my 2nd claim was dismissed like yours and CB are saying as far as they are concerned the matter is closed. She is asking for more information to substantiate the FOS taking it any further. I have already explained that CB won on a point of law (not because the proved their charges were lawful). Should I send her a copy of Court of Session's opinion re res judicata. Mel 5

Hi George I've been waiting to hear about costs too since my 2nd claim was thrown out at the end of March. So I take it they aren't going to pursue me for them. That's a relief as I had decided to go to jail before they would get any more money out of me. Mel5

Clydesdale Bank Please add Stirling court to those who are not accepting second claims Mel

Hi all Been to court today and as expected case was thrown out and expenses awarded to Clydesdale. (Don't know how much yet) Financial Ombudsman here we come! Mel

Sorry to be the bearer of further bad news but I was to have a meeting with a lawyer this afternoon. I eventually got a copy of the defence 2 days after my hearing (I had to phone the court to arrange this - the staff were extremely helpful and had a photocopy ready for me to pick up). I then passed this on to the lawyer early last Friday and he got back to be yesterday afternoon as arranged. He told me that it would not be necessary for me to have an appointment because in his opinion the case is going to be thrown out at the hearing next Tuesday 13th. He didn't tell me anything new. In other words I should have gone for the full amount at the outset as I had known exactly the amount of the total claim. He advised me to turn up for the hearing next week to see what the result would be. He also said that it was possible that I might have charges made against me. I was under the impression that no charges were exacted for a small claim. Can anyone confirm? I think I am going to be very uncomfortable (in fact feel like a right lemon) in court next week. What on earth am I going to say in response? All suggestions (within the law of course) gratefully received. Mel5

Latest update: Was at court on Tuesday 27th for 2nd prelim hearing. Did not go well. It was a different sheriff and she was unwilling to make a decision so late in the debate and said that it should have been heard again by the original sheriff. She asked if I was unable to argue against the point of law that CB's solicitor had put forward. I had to say that I wasn't as I had not received a copy of the defence. To cut a long story short she has continued the case until the 13th March when the original sheriff will be available. But she did impress on me that I had better come prepared with arguments and recommended that I get a copy of Stair's Encyclopaedia (I can hardly spell the word far less be able to understand the legal jargon in it) from the library and make an appointment with a solicitor. I managed to get a copy of CB's defence - all 13 pages of it. I am unable to put it on line but here are the cases quoted: Stevenson v Pontifex and Wood (1887) 15 R125 (pages 125-127 of Cases decided inthe Court of Session etc) & para 77 of Vol 13 Judicial and Other Remedies) Aberdeen Development Co v Mackie Ramsay and Taylor (pages 177-182 of Reports-1977, Scots Law Times) The Duke of Abercorn v Merry & Cunningame Limited (pages 319-321 of Reports-1909, Scots Law Times. I would be very grateful if anyone out there can give me advice. Thanks Mel5

I have just had a private message stating that Clydesdale used the same argument in an Edinburgh court and that the Sheriff agreed to throwing out the case as "incompetent". If this happens to me when I return to court on 27th March does that mean that it is all over and that I can't put in another claim. Is the Clydesdale going to get away with only paying out £750 of a claim of over £3k? What argument can I use against the sheriff if he proposes that my 2nd claim should be thrown out? Help, please Mel

Hi George Haven’t been on-line for a while as I was waiting for 27th Jan hearing on small claim No 2 vs Clydesdale Bank. Expected it to be same as last time “our charges are fair blah de blah “ and was shocked and totally unprepared for the defence Clydesdale’s solicitor used. Her defence was that my claim should be thrown out as it was “incompetent” for the following reasons: 1. because I had known at the outset that the amount I would be claiming was approx £3k I should have claimed the whole lot in one go. 2. I was therefore abusing the small claim system and as one claim had already been made for £750 and settled this 2nd claim should be dismissed on the grounds of incompetency. She produced 3 different cases to support her argument. (None of which I might add were against bank charges). The sheriff had a recess so that he could study them When he returned he told the solicitor that the cases she had submitted were different from mine in that the claims made in each case were for one incident at one specific time and as such he agreed that the small claims system should not have been used. But he added that although this second claim of mine was almost identical to the first in that I was claiming the same sort of amounts viz for returned dds etc these had been incurred not as one charge but as a succession of charges and as such he thought that the small claims system could be used. However he was going to continue the case for a month (27th March) before giving his decision. And as I had not been aware of the defence I could consult a lawyer if I so wished. The best or worst of it is that they had made me an offer prior to the hearing but because it didn’t include interest and expenses I turned it down. So what do you think? Should I worry? All encouraging and optimistic comments will be gratefully received. Mel

Hello All Haven’t been on-line for a while as I was waiting for 27th Jan hearing on small claim No 2 vs Clydesdale Bank. Thought it would be same as last time as they had offered a settlement but as it didn’t include interest or expenses I turned it down. So a 2 minute appearance with a date set for proof hearing was on the cards. But that wasn’t the case. I knew that they had registered a defence but again expected it to be same as last time that the charges the bank was making were fair blah de blah. You could have knocked me down with a feather when I heard what the solicitor had to say. There was nothing about charges at all. Her defence was that my claim should be thrown out as it was “incompetent” for the following reasons: 1. because I had known at the outset that the amount I would be claiming was approx £3k I should have claimed the whole lot in one go. 2. I was therefore abusing the small claim system and as one claim had already been made for £750 and settled this 2nd claim should be dismissed on the grounds of incompetency. She produced 3 different cases to support her argument. None of which were against bank charges. The sheriff said he would have to read them and asked me to wait in court. I was there for 2 hours while he dealt with umpteen other cases during which he attempted to read the evidence not very successfully in snatches between cases. He then suggested a recess of half an hour. When he returned he told the solicitor that the cases she had submitted were different from mine in that the claims made in each case were for one incident at one specific time and as such he agreed that the small claims system should not have been used. But he added that although this second claim of mine was almost identical to the first in that I was claiming the same sort of amounts viz for returned dds etc these had been incurred not as one charge but as a succession of charges and as such he thought that the small claims system could be used. However he was going to continue the case for a month to allow each side to investigate the matter further and that as I had not been aware of the defence I could consult a lawyer if I so wished. Please let me know if the Clydesdale or any other bank has used this argument against anyone else and if so what was the outcome? Mel

Hi George 1. Yes it included the £39 for raising the action plus 8% interest daily for the period that the small claim was served until the date of payment. 2. If when you sent in your request for payment and LBA it was for the full amount of your claim (not just £750 limit of small claim) then you skip these steps and go straight for your 2nd claim of £750. Mine has already gone and am waiting for a court date. But as the courts are getting flooded with claims I don't expect it to be very soon. I don't know if now that they have paid one (but not admitting liability of course) the second one might not go the full distance like the first. But this could be just wishful thinking. At least it won't be so scary. We'll know what to expect. Mel

Thanks George To clarify It was my first claim of £750 to be settled (unfortunately) so the next one is for the same account with Clydesdale. Poppy I confirmed it with Robert that if your LBA was for the full amount of your claim (say £3K) you can skip steps 1-3 and go straight to lodging another small claim for £750. Hope this clarifies - it's a bit early in the morning for me. Mel5

Thanks SR Thought I would let everybody get over the London expedition first. Received a cheque for the full amount by recorded delivery on Thursday 30th. Wasn’t sure whether I needed to go to court on Friday 1st or not but decided to go. Just as well as Clydesdale was represented and informed the sheriff that I had in fact received a cheque in settlement as an ex gratia payment and in no way did the bank admit liability. Sheriff asked me to confirm this and I said yes but that I wanted a continuance until the cheque cleared. He was a bit surprised by this request but granted another hearing for the 19th December. The cheque has now cleared and I have advised the court accordingly. So it’s on with the next one. Hope it doesn’t take as long as the first (14th April to 4th December). Mel5 There will be turkey on the table after all!!!!!!

Went to court on Tuesday 21st for preliminary hearing and Lloyds had a solicitor there. Got another date in February 2007 for hearing evidence. There goes the kids' Christmas. However Didn't check my account until this morning and surprise, surprise I was £972 richer. So it's a Merry Christmas all round inc CAG. And the next small claim in the pipeline asap. Would a moderator please put this in litigations concluded for me. Thanks for all your help. Digger

Thought this might be of interest. This is a copy of Lloyds defence which I received on Fri 20th against my credit card small claims action which comes to court (Scottish) on 5th December. The Defendant Lloyds TSB plc (“the Bank”) is a Bank whose registered office is 25 Gresham Street, London EC2V 7HN. It is admitted that the Claimant has been a Credit Card holder of the Bank at all material times. The Defendant will object that the Particulars of Claim in this action disclose no reasonable cause of action against the Defendant and makes no allegations against the Defendant as to why the Defendant should be liable to the Claimant for the amount claimed. The Particulars of Claim do not comply with the Civil Procedure Rules as (amongst other things) they do not show how the sum of £185.87 was arrived at and the Particulars of Claim are too vague. The Statement of Claim shows no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim. The Claimant should, therefore, be ordered to file and serve an amended claim to set out the basis in law and fact for her claim as there is no pleaded basis for the claim itself. The Claimant should give full Particulars of the charges she is seeking to recover, identifying each charge, the date and amount of the charge and why the Claimant in each case she alleges it is a disproportionate penalty and thus unlawful. The Defendant should then be given the opportunity to defend the proceedings further. For the avoidance of doubt by opening a Credit Card account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the Bank for the provision of Credit Card services. The Agreement is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At the time of applying for the Credit Card and at the time of the account opening a customer is provided with details of the Bank’s charges that are set out in Clause 8 of the Terms & Conditions that govern the agreement. By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. For Credit Card customers, a number of services are provided for free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the Bank. Such services presently include, but are not limited to, providing: Credit Card statements Up to 56 days interest free where the balance is paid in full by the due date Free Additional Card The facility to make payments by direct debit to Third Party. Clause 8 of the Terms and conditions and headed CHARGES states: 8.1 For letting you continue to use your card (if we do let you) despite you having broken these conditions we will charge you: · £20 if you do not make at least your minimum payment by the payment date; · £20 each time you exceed your credit limit; · £20 each time a direct debit, cheque or other payment order you have given us is not accepted when we present it for payment. We will also charge reasonable cost and expenses resulting from you breaking these conditions. By maintaining the account in within the agreed Credit Card limit agreed with the Bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. 7. There is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the Bank’s loss. The charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful. The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charge are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the Bank, an pursuant to Regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness. In the premises: 9.1 the charges are for Credit Card services, and are not damages nor a penalty; 9.2 the Bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable; 9.3 it is denied that the charges, are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation. 10. The Claimant’s claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the Claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the Bank. Alan Ingledew, Sechiari Clark & Mitchell When I first read it I was sure it had been sent to the wrong person - it so full of inaccuracies. Firstly I used the small claims form template which as we all know includes the information they say is missing. I included a schedule of charges with it. How they came to the figure of £185.87 is beyond me. My claim is in the region of £750 which is the amount allowed in Scotland. (This being the first of 3) Also on their very pukka defence form they name two different courts. I assume that I don't bother contacting them with correction and just wait to the court hearing and point them out to the sheriff. Is this correct: Appreciate any comments. Mel

Hi Is there a Small Claims "court bundle" available anywhere for a proof hearing (1st Dec)? I understand I have got to have this to the court 14 days before. Do I get a copy of the Bank's evidence first (nothing so far) so that I can respond? Appreciate any help. Thanks Mel5

Thanks Robert Why doesn't this surprise me! Why can't it be more like the English system? Sorry, feeling at a loose end and need a moan. Mel

If the Clydesdale settle before the proof hearing on 1st December will it be for a) my first claim of £750 plus interest and exp or b) for the full amount of approx. £3K. plus interest plus exp If it is a) do I then go ahead with the whole process again for the next £750 (or £1500 summary cause which I am thinking of doing)? Anybody know? Mel

Now that I have my own account at the court hearing stage can I now start with a joint account (also with Lloyds TSB) that I have with my wife or do I need to wait until my own account is settled. Digger

Good news all round. Congrats I also got cheques in settlement for both JJB and USC (Creation). Although they had reduced the USC sum slightly because I had included interest charges which I shouldn't have - an acceptable result. They also told me that my cards had been cancelled but as I had cut them up at the end of last year it is no hardship. Mel If only Clydesdale were as co-operative

Wish we could swap court dates, Robert. My proof hearing is on the 1st December. I'll be watching this thread closely for tips on what to do. I'm desparately hoping that they will settle before that. Mel5

No result with the LBA so sent off Small Claims Form. Court Hearing set for 21st November Return Date 14th November Digger

Mel vs Clydesdale bank My Court Hearing was yesterday. I found out on Friday that they had entered a defence. Also on Friday I had been offered a settlement £735 but as this did not include interest or costs and was to be in full and final settlement I declined. My total claim is for approx. £3910 plus interest and costs. They had a solicitor in court with their defence which was much the same as the contents of the bank's letter that they send you refusing payment. The sheriff asked him to elaborate on the points made in the defence but was told that he would need more time. So there is to be another hearing on 1st December. We were out of court within 10 minutes. (A sleepless night for nothing). I am told that the ball in now in Clydesdale's court so it's a waiting game again. Mel

Talk about the best laid schemes!! Phoned the Court on Monday to ask what to do about my offer only to find out it was a local holiday. Intended to fax/phone the Clydesdale to reject settlement offer but on examining their letter could find no contact details except address. Tried to phone but every Clydesdale bank has the same phone number. A call centre surprise, surprise!! Managed to find my branch number only to be diverted through to - yes youv'e guessed the call centre. They were as usual a big help. After explaining that it was legal services at St Vincent Place that I wanted to contact they couldn't help. So much for letting them have a reply by Monday. Off to Court this morning and spoke to Duncan (my new best friend at Court) explained that I had received an offer but I was not accepting. He said to let the sheriff know. Sheriff arrived in court at 10.10 a.m. and I was back out on the street by 10.20. I was first up. He didn't seem that interested in the fact that I had been offered a settlement. Clydesdale's solicitor - yes they had one there - was asked to eloborate on the written defence that had been submitted. I could here snatches of what the sheriff said "breached contract" "agreed to accept charges when the account was opened " etc. Poor solicitor said he was unable at this time to add anything else. So the nice Sheriff has given me another date to attend - 1st December. No doubt the bank will use the time wisely to think up more delaying tactics. Anybody got any ideas how I should proceed? All suggestions welcome. Mel

Thanks all. I will be contacting both Clydesdale and the Court first thing tomorrow rejecting the offer. I want my interest and costs. If they offer to pay these as well then I'll accept on the understanding that I will be pursuing the rest of the charges (c £3410) through as many small claims as it takes. I've got plenty of time. After all this has been going on since April what's another couple of months. Will keep you posted Mel