Thank you - that is very helpful.

Friend of mine knows I look at this site, asked if I could look into this. I helped her get a breakdown of bailiffs costs from the council. COuncil have 5 liability orders (granted between 28/1/05 and 27/8/08). According to the council, the first visit by the bailiffs for ALL LO's took place on the same day: 13/12/07; and the second visit all on 14/01/08. The bailiffs are charging for a first vist and second visit for each LO, (so 5 x £24.50 and 5 x £18.00). Can they do this. despite the fact they only made one actual visit on each occasion? One of the LOs was granted on 27/08/08 and the bailiffs actually are trying to charge for both visits (13/12/07 and 14/01/08) BEFORE tha actual LO was made!! So bit of an own goal there! Any advice is welcome.

Does the water company in your area have a trust fund? United Utilities where I live does and they often give grants for people for their water rates arrears when they are experiencing difficulties, particularly when they have just lost their job, become ill etc. Woth having a look.

Sorry I haven't replied earlier. Thanks for all your replies - they are extremely helpful. The bailiffs did visit once, but my firend did not allow them in, let alone sign walking possession. The worse thing about this, in one sense, is the complete indifference to this matter by the council officials - they just washed their hands of it, saying you will have to take it up with the bailiffs. A visit to the local councillor may indeed help - assuming the councillor gives a monkeys. If he does, he, and other councillors have got to be made aware of what's going on in the counicl's name, let alone the fact that council tax revenue is being siphoned off by these leeches (Marstons, btw) especially when councils need all the money they can get!. Again thanks to everyone here, it is reassuring that people can get the assistance and support of you all.

Hi, a friend of mine has been paying the bailiffs £100 per month for council tax arrears. They do not have walking possession. When she asked the council how much was now outstanding, the debt had gone down by only £645 yet sha has paid the bailiffs £900. The council told her she will have to take it up with the bailiffs. The bailiffs said they had kept £335 for 'adminsitration charges'! I told my friend to stop paying the bailiffs and pay the council direct at the one stop shop (I hope this is good advice!) . But how can she challenge the costs the bailiffs have already kept as surely they are excessive, particularly as she has been paying by standing order, so the actual costs of collection will be close to zero. I can find lots of advice about costs for visits, letters etc, but nothing about what they charge for colelcting an 'administering' colelction. ANy advice is welcome.

Thanks PT - as always, very helpful reply. But (it's only a little but) what does 'inspection' imply (don't fancy having to travel somewhere to see the document!)?

Brilliant post, so let me see if I've got this right! 31.14 for copies of documents mentioned in POC Part 18 to clarify certain matters pertaining to the case 31.15 for inspection of documents NOT mentioned in POC? No embarrassed defence One thing I am unclear about though, if you don't make an embarrassed defence, what does your defence actually say? Or do you apply to force disclosure before the time limit to make the defence? Oh, and call me a thicko, but does 'inspection' of the documents mean they have to send you a copy, or do you have to go and physically inspect it at their premises or somewhere?

Thanks again, may give it a shot!

No PPI, and agreement is definitely OK. I am defending only on the DN. Yes, I did get a termination letter demanding the full balance, and I did accept the termination. But having read many, many threads on this board I am wary of what some have termed the 'judge lottery'. And the bits I've read on the Amex v Brandon case don't fill me with confidence, whatever the strength of my case. So, do I continue and potentially win - or lose and double the debt if Optima can add £1500 costs? I've got until next Wednesday to decide! One last point: I thought costs were limited to a percentage of the amount claimed. If this is the case, I will take my chances if they are only say 20% or whatever of the debt.

Thanks for replying. Yes, the DN is my only defence and it is the small claims.

Just got a letter from Optima inviting me to withdraw my dfence (defective default notice, "within fourteen days", etc, etc) saying if I lose I could be liable for £1500 costs. Is this right? Can they claim that much?

I am in this exact position. The judge even gave me leave to appeal, but the costs are a massive risk.

many thanks, that has made it very clear.

Been following this thread, so I hope these are not stupid questions, but here goes... "Negotiate first... ED last resort." What are you negotiating? Is it just for the documents so you can prepare a proper defence, or to get the claimant to withdraw. If at the AQ stage you haven't got the docs, is that the point where you submit the ED (or, if you have got them, submit the full defence)? Hope it is not inappropriate in someone else's thread to ask these questions (if so, I apologise in advance!)

the discussion re Amex is on page 11 of the thread.