thanks dx, I'll look through it on detail later, but there's nothing in there about making formal demands while an overdraft account is in dispute. They have already replied to my first letter of 14th May, where I asked for them to send a true copy of a valid default notice or remove it, saying that one was sent, that a formal demand had been made in any case in August 2009, and the account was clearly defaulted because they issued a statement from CDR department. They are acting like I'm saying I hadn't received a default notice at all, which I have it's just that the notice I received isn't valid. They have also clearly stated that they would not be willing to remove the default. I've never gotten anywhere with Lloyds by asking nicely, when I asked for my charges back, asked them to lift the stay because I was in hardship both times they told me where to go basically because there was no law that said they had to do these things, only guideline. I need to be much more heavy handed with them, they aren't going to remove the default unless I threaten them with something that will make them remove it. So I'm just trying to clarify the law on 1) issuing formal demands on overdraft accounts while the amount of the overdraft is in dispute 2) filing defaults on an overdraft account - I think the pdf you sent me, and also the CCRegs will help with this. - are the rules for default notices the same on overdrafts as they are on other accounts - I'm pretty sure I don't have a valid default notice as they demanded payment immediately and did not explain to me, AFTER the dispute was resolved, that the consequences of not paying the money back would be to file a default with the CRA's. thanks

I think the main thing that I'm confised over here, is can they demand full amount, repayment plan was in place but I'd asked for them to suspend it because I was disputing that I owed the money, they didn't acknowledge this request so I wrote and told them I wouldn't be making any more payments. Can they issue a formal demand for the overdraft amount, while the overdraft amount owed is disputed and before a full and final response ? Is this legal ? I'm not sure it is because I didn't agree to keep paying charges while those charges were being disputed in the T&C's, and also because OFT says the bank should suspend action on amounts that rae being disputed.

Thanks dx, Why is the default notice invalid if the OD is made up of penalty charges ? I thought that the test case ruling decided that these charges weren't refundable and had to be paid, I don't think I've seen a successful case where they've been paid back since the OFT ruling - any links to law appreciated The entire OD was made up of penalty charges, all added before November 2009 (Banking Code, I don't think BCOS applied until Nov 2009, last charges applied October 2009) . I started a claim against bank in 2007, just as test case stuff was coming in and the claim was stayed, the bank refused to lift stay although they acknowledged hardship. With regards to the default notice, the bank really muddied the waters I logged a complaint disputing the overdraft sum JULY Then separately, they granted me an unauthorised overdraft as I didn't pay my installment on my repayment plan on the overdraft, because I was disputing the overdraft amount I had a demand for full sum AUGUST because I hadn't paid the unauthorised overdraft amount and the interest charges on the unplanned overdraft back. In SEPTEMBER they did the same thing again and then sent me a letter saying they were willing to temporarily suspend legal action on the account if I contacted them "straight" away to discuss repaying the full demand they issued in AUGUST. They granted me an unauthorised overdraft every month when I "missed" my payment installment and didn't pay the unplanned overdraft charges until OCTOBER Then 13th OCTOBER I had a NOTICE of court proceedings saying they wouldn't take action if I immediately paid the unplanned overdraft amount of about £60. thanks in advance for any links oir advice.

Hi Brigadier, thanks for your reply, just to clarify I had a final response (OCT 2009) to my complaint/dispute 3 months after I logged it with them (JULY 2009). There were various letters responding to my complaint putting me off and saying they were still looking at it or had referred it to their bank charges team, but the charges and final demand were issued (AUGUST 2009) independently, actions and letters with demands just kept coming with no reference or acknowledge of my dispute or complaint in them. It was like the two things were completely unconnected as far as the bank were concerned, I don't think this is right ? If you dispute that you owe money that they are trying to collect, shouldn't they stop collecting until the dispute is resolved ?

Hello, I'm trying to find something that I can use to argue that a formal demand that was issued for an entire overdraft amount, while the account was in dispute, isn't legal. I understand that banks can demand the overdraft be repaid at any time as CCA doesn't apply to short-term unsecured loans but, The Office of Fair Trading Code of Guidance states: “putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive. This includes ignoring disputes about whether money is owed and refusing to freeze action if the debt is in dispute.” I wrote asking that action on the account be stopped while it was in dispute, they just carried on adding charges (unplanned overdraft to cover the repayment plan I had set up but stopped paying because I disputed I owed it as it was made up of charges). I wrote again saying I wouldn't be making payments while the account was in dispute, they then issued a formal demand for the entire overdraft amount. I need advice on whether they were allowed to do this....was thinking of replying along the lines of When I opened this account, I did not agree in the terms and conditions that you could refuse to freeze action, including making formal demands and continuing to apply charges on my account, when it was in dispute. Furthermore, it was not explained to me anywhere when I opened this account that the OFT Code of Guidance would be overruled in such circumstances and that you would continue to take action while the account was in dispute. any advice appreciated, my ultimate goal is to try and prove that a default notice that was issued and recorded on my credit file, after the banks full and final response, isn't valid (I recieved one that stated the default sum, about £60, and demanding I pay the money immediately by contacting them the day I recieved the letter, doesn't meet the consumer credit regulations). The bank are currently saying that the default notice is valid because, 1) they issued a formal demand prior (when the account was in dispute). I think they are trying to say that they followed the right procedure before defaulting me ? But I don't think a formal demand while an account is in dispute sounds right. 2) that it was clear from a statement issued just prior to the default being recorded that the account was with thier consumer debt recover department Am I on the right track here ? Or is there something else relating to action on disputed accounts, bearing in mind it's an overdaft that was being disputed, that I can use ? Also do default notices issued on overdarfts have to satisfy the consumer credit regulations, in terms of the amount of time given to avoid the action they say they are going to take ? I am ultimately trying to remove the default notice, but realise I will have to start a repayment plan for the overdraft in the end as the test case wasn't successful. many thanks in advance.

Hi thanks for the replies, I'm pretty sure that the debt is still owned then by Lloyds. Does this mean I don't have to deal with Iqor and can deal directly with Lloyds (even though they are telling me I have to go through Iqor) ?

Hello, Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, I have looked but can't find anything concrete. I'm trying to tackle two things with a defaulted sum of just over a grand (overdraft balance) with Lloyds. 1) Who actually owns my Debt ? I've fended off IQOR who doorstep visited, wrote to them to tell them I don't ackowledge that I owe the debt to them, and asking for them for proof of ownership of the debt_ that was 28th May and they seem to have gone quiet for now (early days though). I also wrote to Lloyds 28th May, and asked them to confirm if the debt had been sold and who to. I have had a vague response, saying the debt has been "passed on" to "thier agents" IQOR, that they are dealing with the account on Lloyds "behalf" and that all correspondance should be directly with them, a postal address was then supplied for IQOR. then a statement saying "if you wish to make a payment today using either my debit or credit card then please contact us on the above number", the only number on the letter is LLoyds tel. no. (I think that might be a bit of standard text from the consumer debt recovery department there, but it's very misleading !) My credit file says Lloyds NOT Iqor next to the default. Am I right in thinking that whoever's on my Credit file "owns" the debt - i.e. Lloyds I am confused because Lloyds letter is implying that they can still collect on the debt and ask me to ring them, but they have told me only to communicate with Iqor inplying that it has actually been sold to them. I've looked in other posts and Iqor do buy debts and could possibly own the debt now, in which case I think I'm right in saying that my credit file is wrong as it should have been updated to say Iqor and also that Lloyds can't ask me to ring them. Also if it has been sold, then I think that Lloyds should have written to me notifying me of this. 2) The second issue I'm trying to tackle (which I included in my letter to Lloyds 28th May, but they have not ackowledged at all to date), is that I don't think a valid default notice was issued, (plenty were issued for new amounts every time they gave me an unplanned overdraft to cover the interest fees from the previous unplanned overdarft they gave me, but not for the amount that I've been defaulted for that is on my file). I wasn't issued a termination notice before my account was closed either. But I'll tackle this once I know for sure who owns the debt. If Lloyds don't own the debt anymore then am I right in thinking they can't collect on it ? (assuming I'm successful in getting the default removed) any advice is appreciated, Lloyds are being vague, Iqor have dissappeared (for now, but I gather they are persistent) and I am not expecting them to communicate in any meaningful way regarding proving that they own the debt (if they do).

Update **** I wrote notifying that I would be making no further payments on this overdraft account, as I am disputing that I owe the amount that collections are attempting to collect. I detailed in my letter why I disp[uted that I owe the amount, i.e. that the amount is entirely made up of punitve charges applied and that this matter is currently the subject of litigation in the courts. I also stated that I expected Lloyds to await the outcome of that case before any further action was taken. I received a very nasty letter from SCM (Lloyds solicitors), maintaining that I have to repay the overdraft and threatening legal action if I do not make any payments within 7 days. They haven't commented at all on the litigation in the courts about bank charges. I've written back and maintained that I dispute that I owe this amount. That this overdraft wouldn't exist at all if they hadn't applied punitive charges. I've recieved, last week, a letter from collections stating that they will delay court action for a further 10 days in order for me to make a payment. I'll be writing back maintaining that I dipsute that I owe the amount they are trying collect. I'm fully expecting them to proceed with court and will update when I have a hearing date.

I have heard today that some stays have been lifted in Cardiff county court and some not. Each case is taken on it's own individual merits.

ok bankfodder got your email and replied, thanks you very m,uch.

also yourbank, my credit card charges only amount to around £70, not even going to make a dent, only half of one months car payment ! will take months to sort out. I have to give a sh*t about my credit because of my girl, I'm trying so hard to keep things together, she has no clue how worried I am or how close we are to miving into a grotty bedsit, I'm trying hard, guess that's why I've got dicky heart. If it wasn't for her I'd have tripped off to spain a long time ago and put this whole sorry mess behind me.

Janus, do you want my spreadsheet detailing my income expenditure ? I hadn;t though of emailing the CEO, of LLoyds ? How to I get his address, it took me 3 months to get an email address for the charges department !! yes, yes anyone have the email, snail mail address of the CEO of Lloyds ? I did search for a personal banking managing dirtector (wales) name on google a while ago and came uup with nothing....

Hia yourbank, no it's not harsh, no worries, I'm not working now so am not paying them, WFTC used to pay something towards them, mum's disabled, all other family working/not supportive or estranged. Can't get part time work as I'm an engineer, her dad works funny shifts so can't collect or drop her to school, doesn't drive either and lives a good half an hour away in a car. Overqualified for the part-time jobs that are going that fit in with school times. I've absolutely done everything I think I can, claim absolutely everything I can. If I got my damn charges back I'd be in with a fighting chance. I was workiung full time and doing a part-time MSc, not lazy, working myself into the ground to keep everything together, wondering why I bothered now. Hopefully a judge will see my efforts, I raised my dredit score from "don't give this woman anything , ever" to "actually please would you just have another think about having some more credit because you're such a good payer". Ironically I have a letter dated 2 weeks ago thanking me for my relentless promptness with paying my car HP and asking me to consider taking another loan with them for my next car!!!! ha! a change is coming. I'm really hoping that with all my evidence a judge will decide sanely and decently to get my stay lifted without a hearing (might save some time) and then get me a quick court date. I've heard the banks allways setlle before the actual case is heard, sometimes on the court steps ! what I need to do now I think is actually get those FACTS from Cardiff Court to add to my case (the guy's on hols til next wednesday..bugger!), and just to compund everything, rubbiong salt into my long standing wounds, Lloyds will readily agree I'm in financial ahrdship (I have a name and department to quote a verbal confirmation that they agree), and also that they will not agree to lift the stay or refund, and that I will one ovely sunny day get writtent confirmation of this but they can't "say when this will be". You know I think I'm going mad. I'll probably have to put anpother com,plaint in, which will take anopther 8 weeks (car gone by then) to get theletter their promising...methinks they're being obrtuctive...methinks they're trying to break me.....methinks I've definately had a bit much to drink now......

basically the actions I refer to by collections, which I have received two separatye letter of apology for are documented in my posts elsewhere about collections harrassing me for money's not due 1) they reduced my overdarft limit in April 2008 WITHOUT telling me and then set the collections pit bulls on my a**se, it took me 6 months for them to explain that they had lowered my overdraft without telling me, they apologised and said hard cheese, here's a lovely payment plan for you to get under the new "agreed permanent" limit 2) the lovely payment plan they decioded on to "assist" me with my finanancial difficluties was £15 a month and all interest suspended. I kept making the £15 a month (as explained above, robbing peter to pay Lloyds and all that) but they added interest in Feb, then gave me a lovely unplanned overdarft, threatening letters, £6 per day charges plus £15 a month. I finally got it sorted and they did exactly the same in March, and April. They've apologised but in the meantime I was diagnosed with a stress related heart arythmia (funny that isn't it - I wonder what stress I'm under) back in April 2008.........around the time I started getting hounded by those lovely call centre people from collections withou knowing the hell why !!!? None of this seems to make any difference to them......I think this has become a human rights issue, maybe a legal one.....I'm not sure anymore. More wine, the court tomorrow, if that's not successful The I'm going to just have to let it all go, I actually can't take it anymore.

My email sent this moring (followed by my soul destroying conversation) I would be grateful if you could ackowledge by the end of business today that my request for consideration of hardship status, and my income/expenditure details are being looked at by your department and whether your considerations are reaching a conclusion. I am concerned as this is the 10th working day since your reciept of my financial details and I have had no communication in return. Please also note that I do not have funds to make my next hire purchase car payment which is due XXXXXX. There is no unemployment insurance on this loan and the car will be seized by XXXXXXX and my credit rating significantly damaged in this event. I have approximately 10 months left to run on this hire purchase agreement, having kept the account in good order for the past 26 months. The car will be necessary if I am to obtain suitable employment in the future and If the car is seized I have no savings or funds to obtain another, more importantly if my credit rating is damaged I may not be able to obtain credit to purchase another car in the future. This will seriously effect my ability to obtain work in the current climate, as I need to transport my daughter to and from childminders premises and also I may have to travel some distance for work as jobs in my field (water engineering) are extremely scarce due to the economic downturn in Wales. If you would like to evidence on any of the issues raised above, need to discuss any of the points raised here further, or indeed require evidence in support of my redundancy hardship, please do not hesitate to contact me immediately. I have scanning facilities at my local library and can electronically send you any information you require today. I hope to hear from you before the end of business. regards, XXXXXXXX From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX To: charges_complaints@lloydstsb.co.uk Subject: Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 XXXXXXXXXXXX Further to my telephone call yesterday please find attached. 1) My letter received by your solicitors 3/3/2009 2) my original income expenditure received at you solicitors 3/5/2009 which they acknowldege and informed they sent on to Lloyds. 3) my revised income and expenditure due to redundacy 9th June and notes. This is what I intend to submit (N244) to the courts to request a hearing to lift the stay placed on my court case in light of my finanicial hardship, if you do not agree to lift the stay. 3) Up to date detail of charges and accrued interest (at 8%). Please note that I AM NOT CLAIMING OVERDRAFT INTEREST even though my current overdraft is entirely made up of charges. I hope to hear from you within the next 5-10 working days, this matter has now become critical as you may appreciate. The best outcome, considering the harassment I have, and continue to receive, from your collections department though no fault of my own, would be a full and final refund at this stage, in order that I can clear the overdraft currently managed by them. I hope you will consider this very carefully and take my previous treatment by collections into account. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you require details of their actions, which I have received written apologies for. Regards, attached to this was my income and expenditure for both cases of hardship my evidence list, and exp[lanatory notes (complicated life!!!) below is the accompanying notes to my redundancy hardship spreadsheet additional notes I intend to take my car off the road temporarily until I find work I intend to temporarily disconnect my home phone/broadband I do not intend to return to University until I can afford the fees again (£1100.00 per year) I am on pre-pay meters due to debt for Gas and Electricity I have basic home insurance which is required by mortgage lender as I am on interest only I intend to reduce non-custodial parental access unless her father can travel to our family home I intend to suspend my daughters XXXX class activities I would have a small remaining debt left to pay monthly on my credit card if I was reimbursed my charges Creditor 1 XXX Credit (EVIDENCE Q) £350.00 Creditor 2 XXXX loans (EVIDENCE R) £1,010.00 Creditor 3 XXX Credit card *13 (EVIDENCE S) £600.00 Creditor 4 Lloyds tsb (EVIDENCE T) £1,085.00 TOTAL £3,045.00 charges CLAIMED £2,933.27 XXXX remaining debt £111.73 ********************************************** I really feel that I've done everything I can, but if anyone can see something obvious I've missed then I'd be grateful.The 1st creditor is a defaulted loan from divorcing that I have a p[-ayment plan with, the second one is the car HP left to pya, the third one is the credit card, the last one is the remaing overdraft that they are continuing to reduce by £15 every month, I've worked damned hard to get my cerdit score up since my troubles in 2003 and am desparate to try and sort this out. I think that basically they've written me off in the full knowledge that I'll be ruined shortly. (sorry..wine kicking in so I'm having to edit so you can understand me).