Ministry of information tells us mortgage approvals still falling: BBC NEWS | Business | Mortgage approvals still falling as if we didn't know that by now scheesh......

"Citibank has joined the Hotel California Hedge Fund method of allowing withdrawals. Check your money out anytime you like, it just can't leave." EconomicsBriefing.com: ATM's Hacked: Citibank Limits ATM Cash Withdrawals We cant let liquidity leave the system..........

I can play this game intrateripoff........ from the Telegraph: "Almost 20 hours of prime-time Christmas television advertising failed to lure cash-strapped consumers to Land of Leather's biggest-ever New Year sale, forcing the group to issue a profits warning." 19 hours of TV ads fail to help Land of Leather - Telegraph so thats retail down the tube...........

Its all a bit like watching a train wreck in slow motion...........

Mystic Merv is peeing himself...........we now formally have breakdown. Google Trends: house price crash

Hmmmm.......FT just dropped 150 points.........they'd better hurry up.

"Helicopters won't solve the problem imo, they will simply encourage financial institutions that it is perfectly ok to continue with irresponsible & wreckless lending practices because when it all goes tits up, the government will pick up the bill" Everything HAS gone tits up.............and quite frankly I'm not worried about moral hazard and lessons learned. Without a refund of charges ASAP we're looking at an outright recession if not a depression. Frankly...I'm terrified. Better regulation will come. The stable door is always shut after the hoses bolt but the main issue is cash. Consumers need it......banks are actually robbing it from them.....it needs to be returned otherwise there aint going to be many banks much longer.

Standing on the edge.................. Thinking back........isn't it weird how the UK economy trundled along fine while bank charges were being repaid during the first six months of the year. Even ignoring the fact that they are illegal, immoral and hurt the most vulnerable in society.....even ignoring the fact that that the reclaim bank charges campaign has been one of the most successful consumer campaigns EVER.............. The chickens have come home to roost for the banks and the government. They've won.......pure and simple. The charges are fair they say. The banks can take them directly from your bank account at will. Even ignoring for a second that FSA principles of business say that banks must treat you fairly and protect your assets.... It no longer matters.............. If banks take all your money how can they expect you to also continue to put food on the table, pay rising gas, electric and petrol bills? How can you pay an increased mortgage? How can you pay your credit cards? Something has to give. If the banks actually manage to somehow win in Feb. If charges are not repaid to people.......it won't really matter anymore.....The banks will have killed the economy stone dead. Credit cards and loans will default big time.......mortgage defaults will go through the roof.....IVA's and debt management will shoot up..........banks will fall. Unless................They really still do have a chance at saving the day. £4.7 billion in bank charge returns spread over 2 years would be equal to about £47 billion worth of financial support to the UK economy. Loans will stay current. People will keep spending. Mortgages will still be paid on time. Credit card payments will continue to roll in. Store owners will pay their rent which supports commercial property which supports share prices etc etc.. It might just stop a very hard landing for the economy and let us have a gentle slowdown. But make no mistake......time is running out. Any more delay by the FSA, Treasury and the OFT and it wont matter. The Jan/Feb case is make or break. (The FSA could even go it alone........just remove the waiver )

4.7 billion is in the system ready to be paid out to consumers and shore up the economy........... Bank charges Court case listed for January

Read this: FT.com / World - Seoul aims to stave off credit crisis Seoul has helicopters.......why can't we?

Hell, If they don't then I think we're all going to be buggered sooner rather than later. If the OFT dont win this test case in spades by the end of Feb then you can kiss goodbye to the UK economy. Did you notice how all the problems in mortagges started to hit the fan once the OFT stepped in and cut off claims in Aug? Its pretty simple. Banks are robbing people blind - theres no money left to service loan commitments - therefore no one pays any loans back - this is a problem caused by the banks themselves. The OFT and the FSA could fix it - will they? For the sake of the entire economy I hope they do......

OK - I think we all know that the brown stuff has hit the fan with relation to the banking sector over the last six months. And its got worse. Northern Rock is on the rocks. London and Scottish are getting hit by bad debts the FT100 is dropping Gold is rising No one can make payments because no one has any money. The central banks are desperately trying to dump liquidity into the markets - and that has worked but the banks are not facing a liquidity problem - its one of insolvency - and thats cause everyone is squeezed on payments. While we can't expect the governmemt to just gas up the helicopters and drop money in front gardens (although) that would be nice) 0 they can actually do one better - REFUND THE CHARGES. There is billions of pounds stuck in the system in terms of unpaid claims. This is money that could be getting to work in the UK economy by supporting asset prices, property values and retail spending - not to mention backing up securities like unsecured loan payments. It would take a forward thinking economist at Threadneedle St or Canary Wharf to realise it but its probably the best way to inject real money into the UK economy right now - and right now is when its needed. Here's hoping and a merry Christmeas and a Happy New Year to all.

Yeah - Sorry Bookworm & Gez. I got a bit carried away that time. I did not mean to mislead anyone. You should always take my posts with a pinch of salt. To qualify. It is opinion only. But I still stand by the senario. I don't think the OFT have ever made anything clear and have been deliberately obtuse about the whole matter and I wouldn't be surprised if they changed their position if and when it suited them.

We've said it before - but its worth saying again. The OFT will almost certainly lose the test case in Jan/Feb 2008. This is not because the charges are legal - far from it. But the system will be gamed in favour of the banks. You see - the real battle - from the banks point of view - is the need to keep this type of charge alive. Taking money from peoples accounts without providing a tangible service is so mind-bogglingly lucrative that the great and the good all over London and elsewhere will be called in to keep the [problem] alive. Make no mistake. They have been paying the best lawyers, hiring the best financial PR people, and lobbying the most corrupt MP's. Somehow, someway - the banks and the rest of the players will engineer the process so that overdraft charges are still allowed in 2008 and beyond. Lets look at the process: - The banks 'need' to keep OD fees alive so that they may profit easily for years to come. - The OFT (a taxpayer funded public body) really needs to show a win (especially in an election year) otherwise it is going to get lynched by the public. - The FSA needs the issue to go away and never raise its ugly head again. At some point in Jan/Feb the court will rule that either the OFT does not have the juristiction to run the case or that chagres themselves are 'fair' - (this is wrong and corrupt, buts that another story) Then the OFT will pull the 'retail banking pricing study' out of its behind and will say: "ah ha the charges may be fair but we are having them reduced to £12" This chain of events will make everyone happy: - The banks still get to charge fees. - The OFT can say it has 'won' the case on behalf of consumers - The FSA can forget about the mess and start stripping the OFT of its consumer finance powers to ensure that any future problems are handled for Canary Wharf. - You WILL get a claim check. They wouldnt dare try and stop that. Consumers will be able to claim back their charges but will be limited to the difference of £12 (or another set level) and the charges level (e.g £35). No interest will be able to be claimed. Claims will not be automatic - you will still have a few hoops to jump through. A two year window (or less) will be mandated for claims. - The government can run an election just as people are happy about getting their claim check and have a feelgood factor. .....and last but not least the County Courts can go back to sleep. Yes.......I know its not fair......Yes I know the charges should be scrapped for good........but its the way we do things in the UK........engineer the situation so everyone 'wins' The aftermath: Once this is over the FSA will take all consumer credit powers from the OFT. This is a given. It is also likley that the FSA will take powers for regulating current accounts from the banking code standards board as well. Thus giving the FSA full powers over the banks. It is then likley that they will start to try and introduce as much competition into the current account market as possible while making things like switching accounts easier and severly regulating bank charges and their frequency. There will be a crossover period of 'free' banking with charges, and accounts with no charges and a fee, and some in between. Yes: it will be even more complicated - but it is likely that at least one or two decent accounts will emerge. And then Tesco will offer you an account......................and the banks will tremble.......buts thats still a few years off yet. End Note: And not........so you understand......that I think that all of the above is what I think should happen.............but it is what will.

This is is. We knew this would happen but we didn't think it would happen so soon. There is anecdotal evidence of credit card firms, mobile phone co's, utilities and anyone else who collects payments by direct debit suddenly finding that their secure mothly revenue stream is drying up faster than a river in a desert. Continued charges at £35 that run to £200 - £300 for some customers are great for the banks but suck big time for pretty much every other company that collects monthly bills by direct debit. There is only so much cash to go around. People who get nailed with a £35 charge suddenly don't have the cash to pay the electric bill, gas or even their credit card bill (some justice there - the banks are just killing themselves). We have heard that one big bank (with a name that you might have boiled with toast soliders for breakfast) has had a MASSIVE drop in non payment on its cards and loans. But its not confined to one firm alone. DD's are getting returned unpaid as cancelled everywhere. And they are not alone. All over the country companies are cursing the banks and their fees. Rather than incur a £35 charge people have begun to cancel direct debits in droves and are paying bills the old fashinon way - IN CASH. This is actually pretty serious stuff - and is another reason why the FSA and the OFT need to kick it into high gear and finish the test case ASAP. Its now no longer just the poor old customers that are suffering - its blue chip FT100 firms. And when they get mad.....lets just say that they like their revenue streams.......you can better believe that they will be raising this as an issue over the coming months.

I don't see why not - but it would help if the bank had a UK correspondence address for you. If the account is still open - get your claim in.

There's not a lot you can do - but - its a little known fact that the bank manager of every branch in nearly every bank has to account for every bank account that is closed by a customer (they used to have to write a letter to head office explaining themselves). Remember - people are more likely to get divorced in the UK than change accounts. Its a pain to do - and they are all as bad as each other - but the satisfaction is worth it. oh yeah - for everyone who complains - make sure you state that you want to make an 'official complaint' and you want it recorded as such. Remember - you can complain about other factors which may have occured - such as communications with customers (failing to do so properly is a breach of FSA regs) - you do not have to complain solely about bank charges.

It is bonkers that in this day and age that we have the biggest financial institutions in the country being regulated by no less that 3 different regulators in respect to current accounts. The Banking Code Standars Board, the Office of Fair Trading (through consumer credit licences) and the Financial Services Authority. Is it just me that thinks that it is bonkers that tHE FSA has devised quite a good principles based regime (Treating Customers Fairly) that applies to mortgages, insurance, investments, pensions and other financial products but for some bizzare reason does not include current accounts or personal loans. No - for some reason the OFT regulate personal loans and the BCSB (a VOLUNTARY body no less get to decide the rules affecting current accounts. Now I've slated the FSA in the past but lets give them their due for a few things. They are currently scaring the living daylights out of no less than 350 mortgage brokers who have failed to keep proper records and are suspected of misselling some sub-prime based loans. Fair play to the FSA on this one - they might have done it sooner but when they get going they really sink their teeth in. If the past is any guide these firms will be out of business within a week or so. And how about endowment mortgages - the FSA managed to sort our this mess (eventually) - and anyone who was missold got a fairly hefty claim. This was basically because it was insurance companies who had sold the mortgages - not banks. The new Treating Customers Fairly regime that the FSA is bringing in this year is actually one of the best pieces of regulation ever to come out of Canary Wharf. It puts the onus on all firms who sell products like mortgages, insurance, investments etc to think about how they describe their products, how they sell them and how they charge for them. The best thing is it puts the firm responsible in the firing line from the word go. Basically it is just common sense - honest firms who provide good products, have a fair service and charge clear, fair fees will have no problem - its the sharp operators who will be blown away by TCF next year. It will be no use a firms salesman saying 'but the customer agreed to the massive fee even though she was blind and deaf and aged 90' - that sort of thing just won't exist anymore. Taking out a mortgage, buying an insurance product, investing for the future should be a lot better now that firms are forced to think about what is 'fair' and what is robbery. Except for the banks - Even though every insurance company, mortgage provider and investment firm will be falling over backwards to make sure that you really understand what you are doing and fees are clear and fair - the banks will be allowed to carry on charging you £35 quid - per charge - per day for bouncing a direct debit. Are they treating you fairly? Thought not. This is just bonkers - what was a great idea - is now completely underminded by the fact that the firms that are the most unfair (the banks) can just say nuts to the regulation and carry on fleecing you. So - Is it not high time that the OFT and the Banking Code Standard Board (what a joke) - were disposed and stripped of their powers on all financial matters and we let the FSA take over the lot? I never thought I would actually be begging the FSA to regulate something - but to continue the current regulatory mess into the future dosen't bear thinking about. ALL WE WANT IS TO BE TREATED FAIRLY - ITS NOT A LOT TO ASK! Oh yeah - just for laughs here's the mission statement of the baning code standards board who regulate banks current accounts. MISSION STATEMENT The role of the BCSB is to monitor compliance with and enforce the Banking Codes and to ensure subscribers provide a fair deal to their personal and small business customers. A fair deal? Not fair if you're on benefits or a pension and £35 is half your weekly income. But anyway - Angela Knight must have her trinkets.

Yeah - I see what you mean by those links - its no conspiracy - its just that the CAG posts have been pushed up Google. here's the original FT link: FT.com / Companies / Financial services - Charges probe will hit profits, says HSBC Mistermind: I see what you are saying - sadly I am resigned to them settling on a 'fair' fee. The big worry in the banks now is how to keep this type of fee legal. If they can get it set at £3, £5 or £12 then they may lose a bit but at least they get to keep it, and keep increasing it year on year with inflation (or above). The OFT are bound to roll over and let them have it in order to claim 'victory' by getting charges reduced to say £5. There is pretty much no way hell the banking industry will roll over and let this type of fee made illegal. Interesting you mention the frequency - this is going to be a tough one for both sides to reach an agreement on - and will probably end up being specifically regulated by the FSA. "Penalties need to fit misdemeanors, not the bottomless pit of bankers' greed." : wrong - a bottomless pit has no bottom I'm not saying any of this is right but I am a realist - The banking industry will fight tooth and nail to keep this type of fee legal. It may be completely wrong - but from their point of view there has never been an easier way to make money. We're talking about billions of pounds at stake - it may be stolen cash - but its still cash to the banks. I still have my doubts as to whether the OFT test case will actually go ahead in Jan. I think we could well see some sort of agreement reached with the banks and the OFT - eg: They announce the test is case postponed because legal issue are complex - in the meantime we have set a 'fair' fee of £5 and everyone can now claim their money back above this level. In fact I think it is pretty much a done deal - I think the only argument now is on the level and frequency of a 'fair' fee. Having the fees scrapped altogether is probably now out of the question. This sort of scheme will allow the OFT & FSA to claim victory and put the matter to rest - claimants are happy because at least they get something and the banks are happy because this type of fee structure is preserved. "It would be laughable, but the consequences for common folk are tragic" Isn't that always the case?

Wow, It feels like I'm listening to people comment who've been to a funeral. I'm gutted Tom lost as well but no fear - this is just round 1 or mabye round 2 - but we'll win in the end. As Mistermind (above) says: "Any account which, for being overdrawn £5 could previously have been punished with £600 penalties within a month made up of £35 charges" Yeah - its bonkers and in the end the courts will see that. But I like the last comment the best: "Time to awake, the Great British Public, from John O'Groats to Lands End." We've still got the following on our side: 1. Anyone - even a child could see that the charges are illegal, unfair and immoral. 2. Its an election year - do people really vote for governments who allow banks to steal from them - we'll soon see. 3. The OFT can't lose - they can drag their feet but it will be VERY embarressing for them is they lose. Civil servants are slow but they aren't totally stupid. They know its the governemt and the electorate who feed them at the end of the day. 4. Charges are overwhelmingly unpopular - this goes without saying but it should be repeated - Martin Lewis's site gets over 2 millions hits a month - and whats at the top of the page - unfair banks charges news - thats what. I wonder how many CAG gets.... 5. A song about bank charges is about to make it into the charts - it can only help the cause. 6. Banks need customer deposits now more than ever in the wake of the subprime mess - they've lent out all their ready cash in the form of loans. And they were crap loans. The first one who breaks ranks and offers an account with no charges will get the first mover advantage and will get the lions share of new accounts - loads of lovely liquidity. This may happen sooner than we think. 7. Oh yeah - and HSBC have already told investors that the writing is on the wall for charges.......... Charges probe will hit profits, says HSBC - Google Search So cheer up all - we may have lost the battle for damages - but we've almost won the war. And PS.....To Mr Brennan.....I've been watching your fight from the beginning.....and I think we're all very grateful. I'm glad there are people like you going into the legal profession. It gives hope to us all.

You're right - accounts are still completely necessay - and no one gets paid in cash these days. But............... Is it worth using direct debits? - I think DD's are some of the wost offenders for causing charges. The average account might have 10 set up and if they all go out on the same day when the account is empty you can easily see how charges build up so easily. In fact.....is it worth using a bank account for anything other than as a transmission device to get cash in your hand? Is it worth using a debit card when you might get stung for charges? etc etc........ put it this way........if people start canceling direct debits and start withdrawing cash........you watch how fast bank accounts become available that have no charges.

Most of us think of banks as safe places to keep our cash (well mabye not on CAG, but you get my drift). We use banks because its a safe place to keep our money and it makes it convenient to pay bills. Once upon of time we might even have got some interest. Isn't it funny how things change? When we place our cash in a bank we are actually making an unsecured LOAN to the bank. The bank takes the money and then lends it out - charging interest in the process. And I find myself asking........ Is my bank keeping my money safe? Is it now cheaper to pay the small extra fee to pay bills over the counter rather than get a bank charge evey month? In fact is there any benefit to me keeping my money in the bank at all - especially if I get NO interest & pay huge bank charges. Where is the benefit to me? Banks make huge profits by making use of my money.......but if they end up making the majority of their customers poorer every month then we've got to start asking.........should I bother keeping any cash in a bank at all? The 'average' customer in the UK pays between £100 - £200 in bank charges every year......................... Now you've got to ask.......am I getting benefits and service from my bank that make it worthwhile to use a bank account at all?

Edit: If you click on the FT link directly then they try and make you sign up. You can bypass that by clicking here and then clicking on the top link in Google. Charges probe will hit profits, says HSBC - Google Search

Thats a good point about the £5. I bet you're right about Lloyds thinking they could juts set the fee at a fiver but make it daily instead of per incident. It saddens me that they take their customers for utter fools.

Yipee: The news that we've all been waiting for. I've been saying that the writing is on the for the while. But its always nice for someone to admit it outright. On Friday the chairman of HSBC warned of a profits squeeze in the UK banking industry as a result of regulatory scrutiny of bank charges and the growing power of consumers. Mr Green said a legal challenge to banks’ overdraft charges, due to be heard next year, could “change the economics of retail banking” in the UK “The net outcome of that is not that retail banking is going to become a low profitability business" Make no mistake - the tide has now turned - when people actually start singing about the injustices of bank charges then you know the game is up. Beancounters in banks will now be working out potential liabilities and will be telling shareholders over the next few weeks how much this is likely to cost them. They have to. We know bank charges are unfair, they know it, and importantly they know they are going to lose. As a result they will soon have to start putting aside money to account for it. Its been a good run for the banks. But a thief always gets caught in the end. That time is now. More from the FT here: FT.com / Companies / Financial services - Charges probe will hit profits, says HSBC