This is worth reading up on when composing defences:- Mishcon de Reya, Solicitors, London : News and Events : Articles : Judgment: Basil Rankine vs American Express Services Europe Limited How important is it for the DCA to have a copy of the default letter? I hace a cabot case and in the sar I read that they cannot obtain a copy of the original default from rbs as the files have been closed and rbs cant find one. Would this have any bearing in a court case or would it hinder enforceability? Am confused on this one as to the importance of this default notice. Any ideas Rory32

Just found this - a petition has already been set up, it needs lots of signatures. http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/REPOSSESSIONS/ If your passionate, please sign - we need 100's of signatures, possibly 1000's and this effects everyone. I feel it should be illegal, its certainly immoral, if I charge you say 50% interest on a loan, the reason will be of the perceived high risk. If you then accept this rate of interest, again there will be reasons. hence we have agreed that this loan is risky. To then be able to rip you off and when things go wrong - then rape you again??????? Please look at this and think seriously of the consequences!

Stop unsecured debt being turned into secured debt Please sign the petition Petition to: Stop banks from being allowed to place charge orders on unsecured loans. | Number10.gov.uk

Stop unsecured dept being turned into Secured debt. Reference Charging Orders I will start a new tread:- Stop Unsecured Debt being turned into secured debt via Charging Orders. Please sign petition - to be set up Create a new petition | Number10.gov.uk

Hi to all. I have been reading you posts with interest. There is a tremendous amount of time been invested in replying to all the different DCA, I adopted a completely different approach. Personally I ignored all communication from anyone, this resulted in different cc companies adopting different approaches, some just gave up, most sold the debt on and I made settlement with DCA's. That was before I was even aware of cca requests and this consumer action web site. I just negotiated directly on my own offering 7% of outstanding balances. Now my point is, let them go down the court rout, if they cant produce a cca, they will fail, they may still fail for all the other reasons stated but it saves you an enormous amount of time and energy writing back and forth. eg, I kept all correspondence from say Lloyds TSB, all letters were on a 4 month cycle with the same letter repeating every 4 month and 50% settlement offers coming app every 9 month. This means they will torture you with letters because all they have to do is basically push a button. Your time is valuable. This may not be to everyone's taste but i dont believe they get the message until about 2 years has expired. This forces them to put up or shut up. Good luck whatever happens.

I am totally against unsecured being allowed to convert to secured as when the debt was taken out, it was on unsecured terms and the charges reflected this. The risk was both ways. If the borrower realised at the time that this might happen, then there is a strong possibility that he/she would have went for a secured loan and had the benefit of a lower rate of interest. We need to lobby on this point and as was pointed out, lenders cant be allowed to have it both ways.

Hi old glory, if they have threatened you they are breaking the law, no dca's are allowed to threaten you or harass you, this comes under oft guidelines when collecting debt, go to the government website on debt and look up the rules and what is allowed and not allowed - record all conversations making a note of time and date, keep for future records, if you cannot afford large repayments but want to make repayment's, then make token payments of £1.00 until you devise a strategy for dealing with your finances. if 1st credit cant produce an original true signed copy of the agreement, then they have got a problem, even if they can, they may still have a problem if the document does not contain the proper wording. log on to Financial Agreement Solutions and look at what they have to say, however, don't do anything like offering to make massive payments if this will cause you financial hardship, remember to prioritise your debts and unsecured debts are not your main priority although they have to be dealt with. Read what Rory and other have said in the past on here, lots of good info and don't panic - they have the problem, you hold the Ase's even though you don't yet know it. good luck.

Take your time P & P and please don't panic, the pressure is on them, not you, refer back to What Rory said in earlier posts. I settled with these guys for 7% when they couldn't produce an original cca. in your case, it appears they have produced something but you said that the prescribed terms were missing. if that were to be the case, then the agreement would be unenforceable. Everyone situation is different, in my case, i took the attitude that I had screwed up financially and was not going to run away from the situation and that i originally had the money so therefor should do my best to pay it back. I was also in serious financial difficulties so I felt a fair settlement was 7% since they could not enforce the debt and if i was pig headed, I could have gave them nothing. If i was in your situation, i would write them a letter along these lines with a heading " strictly without prejudice" I completely dispute this debt and intend to vigorously defend any court action as this agreement is unenforceable in a court of law for the following reasons: Missing prescribed terms - list them then the sweetener However, despite the above and to save further long and protected discussion's and save further expense to yourselves, I am prepared to make a full and final settlement offer on the basis that once accepted this debt is completely cleared and I will receive confirmation from yourselves to that effect. On this basis of full and final settlement, I am prepared to offer % = to £. I must stress this is a final settlement and once my cheque has cleared my debt will have been settled in full and my credit file marked accordingly. I understand this is very difficult for you but in the current situation, I feel this is the best way to resolve this in a speedy, fair and efficient manner. yours faithfully obviously you can change this around, you may wish to use it or bin it, the choice is yours but I have settled in excess of 200K in this way. I wish you luck

Hi landlady read what Rory32 has written above. debt is in dispute, being delt with or looked at by Ombudsman, let 1st credit know this with: This debt is in Dispute in Big Bold writing at the top of your letter. Do not be frightened, no one can harm you or intimidate you - you are in control, record everything and keep detailed records of all conversations, telephone calls etc with date and time of call. Be polite but firm. read all you can on here, there is a hugh amount of info, I settled with 1st credit 11.5K for £805 - 7% because they couldn't produce a CCA. power to the people & Good Luck

Worth knowing about - test cases http://www.journalonline.co.uk/news/1002058.aspx National westminster bank Plv - V - Kitch 91996) 1 wlr 1316

Hi Curleyben Thanks for the help/advice. At present I am reluctant to divulge too many details as I feel the form is also been used by the DCA and it wouldn't be that difficult to figure out from where I come from who I am and what business I am involved in. A net result could be **** on the wall for me if you get my drift. However, any useful info I can gleam from my own position, I will gladly pass on to the forum. In my situation, the od appeared to have been derived from a 10k od from the bank plus a further 10k od on my gold card. the bank manager then had the bright idea to suggest I use an extra facility on the gold card to obtain a further 10k but would pay this off each month at a standard charge of £150.00, i therefor had in effect a 20k od + an extra 10k for the month = to 30k short term. So it was 30k, then down to 20k, I would pay the £150.00 then back to 30k etc. Then when things went horribly wrong - which looking back -that were nearly certain to do as i was up to my eyeball in debt, i defaulted on the od's. The bank manager was really snotty at first and said I had possibly caused a criminal offence by the way I had misused the od facility. As i reminded him it was his idea, he then said he would pass it on to a dca to get the money if I wouldn't pay them back. I explained it wasn't a case of wouldn't, but couldn't as at this stage i was totally insolvent. I then had various dca chasing me which I tried to settle with for about 7%. I did this because I had a few major success, one 50k was settled for 2%, ie 1k and i felt that the banks might play ball as well. They didn't and the dca wouldn't settle, then I sent a cheque to a dca as a f&f. This was returned and the dca said they were no longer dealing with the case. In the mean time, the bank were not sending me any statements but were adding on interest + charges at the rate of 000. Hence, after a few further success last year with other dca, i then SAR the bank hoping for clarification. My Experien report showed that the debt had ballooned from 30k to 60k over the last 6 years - interest on interest etc. This caused me great worry as these were the only ones to keep adding interest and since I had no statements to this effect from the bank, i didn't know where I stood. After I sar the bank I then contacted the DCA who happened to be in America. They e.mailed me back saying they had been asked to contact me on behalf of the bank as i wanted to make a settlement only their e.mail stated that I owed 33k, not the ballooned debt of 60k. i then sent them a statement of means and a f&F offer of app 7%. They never replied and then I start getting chased by a uk based dca in November, now for the ballooned amount of 60K +. My questions were:- 1 is the od covered by the cca 1974 from what I have read, it appears that it does. 2 Were the bank legally obliged to sent me statements and keep me updated as the interest and charges were been added/This I don't know, morally they should but was it a legal obligation? This i don't know. 3 the US DCA is claiming to represent the bank and is stating via e.mail a 33k debt while the UK dca is trying to collect on 60k. The US dca is not chasing while the new UK dca is chasing with standard treating letters - which - as it happens, contain mis information, ie, the letters state that i have not complied with the terms of a court judgement, i don't have a court judgement on this od so this is a mis information. I don't know the legal situation on sending debt collection letters with mis information contained there in. Must call the oft regarding this. Now the od agreement isn't really an agreement like a credit card agreement, it states amount, type on interest rate - ie gold card and then interest rate10.99% and expiry date. This is followed with customer copy. That is about it at present. i haven't as yet requested a cca from the dca, the bank when they replied to the sar request kept referring to it as a "subject access response" still haven't cashed the £10.00 cheque I sent them and said they didn't need to supply any agreement under a sar request, i would have ot write in again and request this under section 77/78 of the cca. As yet i haven't responded. I am really looking for more info regarding case law and other peoples experiences before continuing. the dca are threatening me with a home visit but as i have found out, one id not legally obligated to deal with a home collector and can ask them to leave your property if they persist. This was on a students loans web site as the students have been heavily busted by od and other bank loans. Thanks again for your interest and best regards for now Murphy69 Test cases which may be of interest:- http://www.journalonline.co.uk/news/1002058.aspx National westminster bank Plv - V - Kitch 91996) 1 wlr 1316

Hi Caro Thanks for you interest. I still face major challenges in 2008 in the region of 200k +. Last year no debt was written off but Activa - 1st credit and equidebt did accept settlements. Most of which I negotiated before being aware of this site, eg, I never knew that I could ask to see an original true signed copy of any of my agreements and always negotiated on the basis that they had all the necessary documentation that they needed legally to enforce the debt. Then, later in the year, after finding this site, I began asking to see the paper work and this turned up the first success with 1st credit so am most grateful for the help. 1st Credit had turned down a higher offer from me originally and were seeking 90% before I requested the paper work. When they couldn't produce this, even though it was now unenforceable, I preferred to make a FF and get rid of one more problem. I cant use the 6 year rule until 2010 for some situations but 08 is proving a major challenge with an OD where they are looking 30k interest from 02 on a 23k OD and a 10K credit card rolled into one. I have done an SAR to the bank and what they sent me were statements, but no signed paperwork. The Bank then told me that if I wanted to see signed contracts, then I would need to request this in a separate letter with £1.00 quoting the CCA section 77(1) and 78(1). I don't know how the CCA regards overdraft facilities regarding prescribed terms, whether OD don't need to include prescribed terms or in what format. I requested evidence of telephone records when the Bank manager explained to me in detail how I could use my Gold card to get an extra 10K OD per month as long as I paid the £150 fee, I would have the use of 10K for the month, then pay it back and then draw on it again. Complicated but he knew I was gambling and up to my neck in it at that stage, my fault for gambling - but he had a duty of responsibility knowing my financial situation and also knowing that his Stock broking arm had cancelled my account due to the high risks I was taking. I didn't owe them any money but they considered my account to risky for their profile of customer they wanted. Anyway, from 02 to now they have added 30K plus in interest. i have 2 DCA after me on this one, one in the USA who have written to me last DEC 06 and agreed I owed them 34k and now Interim um Justita looking 60k plus. Everything on this was quiet for over a year until I stirred the pot by sending in a SAR to the bank, this obviously got them going again and are persuing me through IJ. I did this because this was the biggest single debt and thet were adding interest on interest. Any advice or information regarding OD and their ability to go to court to get a CCJ and then a CO - all of which I will defend vigorously. I also have a case stayed by the judge for 16k, the court rulled that the case could not be pursued on the basis presented by Cabot and asked them to come back with more information regarding my objections. This was last July, the only problem is that it hasn't gone away and Cabot can come back at any time - any advice on stayed DCA cases would also be welcome. All said, there is a glimmer of light at the end of a very long tunnel-for me, it is a case of eating an elephant - One Bite at a time. TIA - best regards Murphy

Thanks for all the positive comments - and good luck to you Goldlady. Will keep you all informed as 08 progresses and good luck to everyone who is trying to sort out their finances.

Hi - just a quick update on my 1st credit - as said earlier they couldn't produce a true original. The said I was still responsible for the debt and asked me to pay in full. I then reverted back to my original offer of 7% to them as I wanted this to be finished and didn't want to be hit with this somewhere down the line. The good news is they accepted my 7% and sent me letters confirming this as accepted as a F&F. Still got plenty of fighting to do but 2008 is another year - lets hope it turns out positive for all.

Hi Mada Please read post about my situation immediately and do Not accept that it is a forgone conclusion that this OD is enforcable no matter what CAB or ND say. They all told me I had no chance and to go Bankrupt, no one would look at my case and it was hopeless etc, etc, well I am not out of the wood yet but have managed to reduce debt from 400k + to 200k and am still not BR and have no intention of going down that rout. I also have loads of equity in a prop but will fight tooth and nail to prevent a CO being placed on it. You need to contact the people I suggest and believe me, its the best £30 I ever spent. If I had know earlier what I know now, it would have save me another 20k. I'm not suggesting you dont pay your debts - I am saying do what is right and just and remember your own family too. No one will come to help if you get dumped out of your home, take action now and remember - they cant get a CO if they dont have a ccj and they wont get a ccj if they cant produce the true origional agreement with ALL THE PERCRIBED terms in accordance with the cca 1974 stated correctly. Good Luck All above is my opinion only and I am suggesting the above based on my experiences! - this does not constitute legal or professional advice.

Hi caro I have the doc on my desk top, it wont cut and past. I highlighted doc on dt, hit ctrlc, then went back to this box and hit ctrlv - nothing happened- how do I get it from the desk top into this box. Thanks in advance

Hi tiaposy From what you say, it seems you have an arrangement in place with the IR. What I would do is offer a very small and absolutely manageable repayment plan as after all, it is you business that provides the revenue and if you put that in jeopardy, you will have no revenue and no pay back.

Hi Rory32, thanks for the above and your very informative posts + dedication to the site. What I received from the DCA's were letters of satisfaction and they have marked my credit file with notes either short settlements or settled in full I have just had a reply from 1st credit, they cant produce the cca and have informed me as such, I sent them back a standard letter asking them to acknowledge this and to write the debt off. I will post their reply later, suffice to say they want me to make them an offer while stating that they are not chasing me for the debt. i am of the mind to try to settle with them as even though the cant enforce the debt through the courts without a signed cca, it still remains and I would have to wait the 6 years to be in the clear. In the mean time, the cca might turn up and I would be back to square one. How do you feel I should proceed? Will post copy of letter later. TIA

Hi tiaposy Its something I cannot disclose apart from that it took 4 years of negotiating and in the end, with out setting a precedent, the IR accepted my arguments and we reached a settlement. it was particularly complicated because of the huge amount of trades I had done over that specific period. In the end, I feel they made a practical decision based on the information I was able to provide and the extreme detail I was able to provide them with right down to detailed telephone call backed up by phone records etc. It is a mistake to look on the IR as boogie men, one person was particularly gong - ho about making me BR but the other party was open to logic, reason and facts and despite not agreeing with everything, He went along with my proposal in the end which was for less than 2%. The IR have made people BR for less than a tenth of what I owed them but I now feel that the approach must have been all wrong and very little respect was shown to the people involved. We are all human and will respond accordingly. Why do you ask?

Yes thank you, re the revenue, yes I have been able to carry forward the CGT losses. Thanks for the help -

Thank you all for that above advice. I currently have returned the allocation questionnaire to the court + a copy to Cabot of my defence as required. FAS legal team are prepared to take on my case on a no win - no fee basis as they say that the prescribed terms missing from the capital bank loan will render that agreement unenforceable in court. Also, they want to sue Cabot as the legal owners of the debt for unlawful charges being made against me, particularly regarding the PPI as seemingly it is required that a legally signed contract should give the debtor the opportunity to decline the PPI via a tick box, ie to opt in or out. My contract did not have this option so again another problem with the contract. I'm now in a serious battle mood and will keep all informed as my case may have implications for others, all be it that my situation is slightly different to most.

Everyone should read this: Article Display

Thank you Dx - just found a great blog on credit repair with templet letters also. creditrepair.blog-city.com

Hi thank you for replying to my post clutch and rory32. my £1.00 cheque got cashed on the 13th of April, 12 working days = 1 May + afurther 30 calander days = 31 May. So now 1st credit have broken some law, what part or reference within the CCA 1974 have they broken and what are the implications re further action if they subsequently turn up a copy. does anyone have experience of a late copy and a subsequent court case and a result? I also have an agreement with RBS subsequently bought by cabot and it is exactly the same as posted by paulorussell earlier. the fact that they only supplied the front copy and not the terms and conditions as mention from the reverse, does this also make it unenforcable? I ran my copy for £30.00 through the FSA credit checker and the following faults were said to be found:- Conclusion:- FSA consider the agreement to have been improperly excuted and in accordance with CCA section 65(1) the creditor may not take steps to enforce the agreement. What does section 65(1) state? anyone please. the FSA checker also says that agreement must have a certain format to be legally enforcable under the CCA - has anyone else used the FSA checker?

Hi Murphy69 ( N. Ireland ) I have been reading with interest. My £1.00 cheque to 1st credit was cashed on the 13th April. received their standard letter about taking up to a month to process. I have been dealing with 1st credit on this particular debt for app 2 years and long before i discovered this web site tried to come to a F and F settlement with them for about 10%, they previously settled a £6500 Nat west credit card debt in 2003 for £700. This time they are not interested and say will go the whole hog, CCJ and then Charging Order. The guy got nasty around the 17th of April when he phoned, I told him I would not enter into further discussion until I had a copy of the agreement, he told me I had already acknowledged the debt as i had previously sent a token payment of £20.00. I told him that didn't prove anything only ignorance on my part and I wanted to see a copy of the agreement at which point he put down the phone. 5 days later on the 25th April they acknowledged my request even though they had cashed the cheque on the 13th. My question is where do I now stand? no paperwork has come through, is for a RBS Aventa £11.5k debt, as far as I know they have 12 working days + another 40 working days to comply, some has said it is 30 days and it is 30 days, not just working days. which is right - please help - and where do you get a hold of this info, ie prescribed terms etc. lets say they turn up the agreement in 6 month, is it still enforceable if they go to court? How would you suggest I fight my corner.