Okay first of all CAGers, I respectfully thank you for your continued service to the community in respect of legal matters. I can remember sorting out one or two debts myself using help from these forums many years ago, and for that I am still grateful. Okay, on to business... This thread relates to recovery of a substantial (but small in legal terms, definitely sub 25,000 and likely sub 10,000) estate by the sole beneficiary of the estate in the absence of a will. It involves the legalities of proof of ownership, and in this thread I will seek advice as to how (in which court, under which procedure) I would go about establishing ownership of goods once a convincing body of evidence has been obtained that the goods were owned by the deceased. Okay, some background. The deceased is my father. Sadly, despite his intellectual and moral prowess early in life, my dad blossomed into a rather ruthlessly cruel, abusive alcoholic. Circa 2002 it was decided that rather than endure more turmoil it would be better for everyone if my father moved out and lived alone. He did so. We were in contact with him regularly, at first in person and later by phone, until around 6 to 8 months before his death. He was in regular (weekly) contact with his sister, and (at least) monthly contact with his mother. As such, a great deal of information has been obtained regarding my father, following his death, from family, relatives, etc etc. My mother married my father over thirty years ago. They remained married until the date of his death. There was no legal separation. There was no will. By rule of intestacy the sole beneficiary of the estate of my father is my mother, who is very much alive, well, and in a loving and close relationship with her three children; myself included. On Monday/Tuesday my mother and I will fill application for probate naming (if possible) myself as administrator and representative of my mother, so that i can handle the affairs on her behalf. At any rate, she should and i imagine will be given grant of letter of administration herself as governed by rule of intestacy. The Estate: This is where things get messy. My father had a very good pension from his former 30 years employment in the chemicals industry. My mum remains sole beneficiary of this pension, but my father being the man he was, went and cashed most of his pension late last year: a sum approaching in total 75 thousand pounds.This was his right as holder of the policy. The money was squandered on goods, drink (and perhaps drugs), holidays, and his two friends who lived very nearby (and still do). At the time of death there was only enough in his account to partly cover funeral expenses, a mere 8 months after the initial payment. The majority of these funds are irrecoverable: my father, it seemed, used cash transactions always and so there is very little paper trail for goods. On the one occasion he did issue a cheque, it was to his friends mother for the value of over 12 thousand (presumably so that the friend could avoid having his benefits seized upon receipt of such a large sum). However. It is known from family, and some records, as well letters and witness testimony of his neighbour, that he definitely acquired the following for himself: 1) A car. Registration is known and car is parked outside. HPI check shows car was registered on the very same day a large sum of money was withdrawn from my fathers account. It is believed my father is registered keeper. Next week i will be, hopefully, able to apply to the DVLA for former registered keeper. Hopefully i can then investigate that person to see if they can lend any credence to my father purchasing said car. The car itself was insured in his friends name, as my father had a DUI ban and could not himself drive. Some weeks prior to his death he visited his mum and proclaimed to have bought himself a car so that his friend can drive him around and drive him on holiday with his caravan. Currently the keys to this car are with his friend. He is still driving the vehicle and the vehicle is still there. 2) A caravan. The caravan was again a known purchase by my father. We have letters from his flat, addressed to him as owner, from lawyers on behalf of the housing agency asking him to move it from the communal area. We have one confirming it was moved, and thanking him for it. The caravan is in storage, but we dont know where. Again, all information and keys are held with his 'friend'. 3) A jeep. This is the least recoverable asset (if any are recoverable). A neighbour said that at one point my father bought a large jeep. No registration is known, but i'm sure once we have a grant of administration the DVLA will divulge this information, if any such vehicle was indeed registered in his name. 4) A big flat screen TV This was missing from his apartment, as well as any and all documentation pertaining to ownership of goods that we know he owned, from various secondary sources such as afforementioned letters from lawyers re: caravan. Now, I have contacted the police about this, and they are unwilling to help in such a civil matter. There is nothing to essentially prove ownership or whereabouts of any of these goods, and there is no evidence of theft. They were however very compassionate, and without giving away any information to me on the phone, I got the distinct impression that my father was indeed the registered keeper of the car. It was suggested i pursue it legally. Now... I know that V5C is not proof of ownership. But if after investigation i can prove the transaction was from him for the car, and that the car was registered in his name, and that the car was paid for from the deceaseds account, then surely I will have a good chance of establishing ownership for purposes of probate in a court of law. At any rate, the 'alleged' cannot legally sell the vehicle without my fathers signature, and indeed if my father is the registered keeper then i can make myself registered keeper through the DVLA under grant of administration. I am sure that the 'alleged' will try to say that the car was a 'gift', but given the shady background of the character (involved in drugs, another friend of my dads was murdered at some point over a drugs debt - my dad testified in court), then on the balance of probabilities, my mother will be awarded ownership? Similarly for the caravan, if i can locate it. Now my question to you, is how to proceed. I had intended tomorrow on setting up a PO BOX (i dont want these people getting my address) and once i am made administrator, intending to investigate with the DVLA but also to contact the 'alleged' via post without prejudice to begin negotiations over ownership of the car, caravan, and recovery of any documents in my fathers name. I would be very factual and well artticulated in the statement of my case, state that i am acting as administrator of the estate, and negotiate a settlement so that 'without prejudice' can indeed be upheld in court. I would then go after various caravan parks and investigate to see if any of them have storage accounts under my dads name. is this the recommended way to go? I cannot approach this man in person, but i do believe that owing to his non legal relationship with the deceased, he has withheld documentation and goods belonging to my father. Indeed as his flat was cleared, the 'alleged' was continually opening his door to see what was going on. Any help would be appreciated. As mentioned this is a very messy affair... but my motivation here is to recover whatever i can of my mums rightful pension for having lived with him all the years that he acquired it. Thanks, John

You think? They didn't specify the amount of the offer... I should just send one pound? I mean I can't see them taking that seriously, it'll just delay them a couple more weeks.

Oh, and the date of the 'enforcement notice' is early June.

Okay here are all the other letters in date order... It should be noted that they are still sending me statements, with added charges.

Oh crap so I have, will amend now... I'll get letters up asap... Thing is... That cant possibly be a default notice (it literally isn't a default notice - it doesn't mention a default and has none of the prescribed terms)... so what is it? And since it hasn't been defaulted, can they issue court proceedings? I would have thought that Lloyds would first have to demand the full amount and/or default/terminate the account before they could go ahead and claim for it, right?

Bump!

This is the only DN-like letter i received from Lloyds prior to SCM solicitors sending me letters...

Hi... I had a student overdraft with Lloyds TSB to the value of, I think 1550. At the start of the year they changed it to a classic account and started charging interest, which pushed me over the limit continuously. I am still in full time education and sent them a complaint letter asking if it could be reverted. They responded and said no. I had to open a parachute account, which I now use, however SCM Solicitors are chasing me for the debt. I received from Lloyds what I think they're calling a default notice, but which was not in the prescribed form. I don't have that at hand right now, i'll get it scanned asap. I have also received a letter from SCM saying they will issue court proceedings. However in between these SCM letters I have also received a bank statement from Lloyds adding interest and charges in the usual way. How can they do this if the account has been defaulted? I figured SCM was just an inhouse scare engine like Mercers etc, but looking through the threads it would seem that they do actually issue court claims. I want to avoid this. I can start a payment plan with them, but we're talking really low payments... Like I say i'm still in full time education and can barely support myself. If they have shot themselves in the foot with this legal speak despite a dodgy DN and added interest, then i'd like to shoot them down asap. The last letter was dated the 21st of Sept (I've left it so long ) so i'm anxious to fire a letter off this week... Any help would be appreciated... Should I write to SCM about the default and charges? Or should I just offer a payment plan for now? John

I've been anxiously awaiting updates re the bank charges situation so that I can make claims back for overdraft charges on mine and my girlfriends accounts. In waiting, I have neglected our old credit card debts, of which ~90% is comprised of charges. I'll keep this quick. Can we still claim back for these charges? What sort of charges can we claim back for? Some of the debts go back around 5 years or so, can we still claim for them? I'm thinking while we're awaiting this bank charges business it would be worth while getting these two credit cards sorted out. I have all the information at hand, and can do spreadsheets etc. Many thanks, John

Hi Alan, thanks for the reply. The issue is one of time. If the POC's were available here and now I'd go be tempted to go ahead with the claim simply on the back of abbeys response. However, while we're all waiting for the new templates I figured I would demand abbey send copies of the actual statements and/or anything else they hold on me. Sadly I cant really do anything productive with this until the new templates are fully drafted. Jimbo, cheers for the response. I'm a lot less worried about capquest now. After I sent my letter to them they replied confirming the payment plan and the next due date. I have decided for the time being that I will make token payments until I can take them to court. Is this advised?

Reply came through from SAR. They sent nothing but a tabulated breakdown of charges. Despite this, they put the charges at approximately 95% of the outstanding debt, which is great news provided these new POC's and templates hit the scene. Because they sent no statements, agreements etc, I think i'll respond highlighting their non compliance with the DPA and threaten a complaint to the controller. What do you think?

If we all close our eyes and make a christmas wish, the banks might go away.

Likewise, a successful appeal in a higher court would be of huge risk to the banks. I can see them going the route of good will gestures again to be honest. It's a safe bet, and many will already have been deterred by the bad press we've had recently. What have they got to lose compared with the devastating blow of a successful case?

I'm not so sure you know, a victory on the part of the OFT would be all over the press. I mean yes, my point about the quick-fix companies was that anybody and everybody would be doing it, but with a regulatory body sanctioning the reclaims i'm sure there would be a whole host of added claimants. It's not just that people would be claiming, either, the banks would be forced to revise their charging strategy and they would lose out on hundreds of millions in future revenue.

According to the front page of CAG, to date around seventeen and a half million pounds have been returned to consumers who have successfully taken a stand against unlawful charges. A quick search reveals that well over two and half BILLION pounds of revenue is generated from bank charges per year. From a purely economical short-term perspective, does it not make perfect sense for the OFT/Government/Whatever to hand the fight back over to the public and risk losing a few million over potentially HUNDREDS of millions? If the OFT were to win, quick-fix legal teams would spring up all over the place advertising their services as a route for bank charge reclaims. Everybody and their dog would be doing it. Letting the consumers get away with a few million a year in goodwill gestures is the lesser of two evils. Here's hoping the new POC's are strong enough. If the OFT have been scared out of action then hopefully they will be.