So, should the underwriting sheet form part of the documentation sent as part of the subject access request? 1970.

Hi, Once you get the agreement you need to scan it and post a copy of it here in this thread. Remember to black out your personal details first before posting. Try not to black out anything else and dont destroy the original. Once you have posted it here there will be a number of regular users on the site who can guide you. You're in good hands now. 1970

Good to hear you got a positive result. 1970.

Ok, having given it some thought I have decided to go with the Form 4 Complaint as per my text in post 32. I think there is a chance the bailiff will sort the problems rather than have to explain to a judge and it appears they have 14 days to reply to the judge regarding my complaint. I assume they will reply saying dont worry Judge - all sorted. Although I would want to get some satisfaction out of them being slapped for sending an uncertified bailiff and for applying unlawful fees my main objective is to get the accounts cleared and out of thier hands. With the missing payments etc I will end up with all my accounts cleared with them. Here goes. 1970

Very interesting thread and well done with your success. I hope you can get back to normal business now. Do you have a plan of action for the chap who stitched you up in the first place? 1970.

Companies should swallow the transaction costs as a cost of sale. It cannot be considered as a cost that must be passed on to the payer. When I but my shopping in Tesco I don't expect to see a portion of the cashiers hourly salary on my bill. I paid £400 to Swift Credit bailiffs and they actually took £420. These fees are not laid down in the regulations and are therefore unlawful. 1970.

1970

Any further comments on post 32?

Hi, I've had a lot of problems with Swift. There's plenty of help here so hang tight and someone will be along to advise how to approach this one. Threatening you with arrest is very wrong so they are on a bad foot already. 1970.

Tomtubby, I'd be interested to hear your view on: A. Should I geve them one more chance (following 12 letters) to srt this out before form4? My last letter threatened form 4. B. Is post 32 over kill? Too much for the court to go through? Thanks, 1970.

I can still show hardship today. The £3500 they refunded only scratched the surface lol. 1970.

Excellent. I've just found this also - crc@wfs.co.uk so could be a good idea to hit both. 1970.

Hi, Does anyone have email contact addresses for Welcome Finance. In particular I wish to get through to the Stevenage Branch but any higher up would be helpful. Thanks, 1970.

Any further ideas on whether I should condense post #32?

Did you know a bailiff by the name of Mr McCl******?

Hi, I successfully obtained a refund of £3500 last year from the Halifax based on a hardship claim. We used the money to pay off some payday loans. I recently switched to BT and have 4 direct debits for the new service. As the service is new I was not quite sure when when the first direct debit would come out. My money was sat in the savings account not the current account. As a result I have been hit with 4 x £30 in one day by the halifax for returned DD charges. I went to the branch to complain and I saw on their screen: NO FURTHER REFUNDS OF CHARGES FOR THIS CUSTOMER! Nice. Hence I was told to get stuffed. Anyway, if I've had a refund previously does this exclude me from any further refunds? I can still claim hardship so I'm tempted to start the process again. Cheers 1970

Hmmm, I'm mindful its a lot of info but they have done a lot wrong. I'll see what I can do to condense it. I understood it was common practice to quote legislation and case law in order to eliviate the judge of the burden looking it up???

Here's what I intend submitting as a form 4 complaint. Sorry about the formatting, MS Word doesnt cut and paste too well on here. Form 4 Complaint BAILIFF A BAILIFF A, employed by BAILIFF COMPANYABC visited my home at 7am on the 6th November 2007 to enforce a liability order obtained by The Borough Council for an outstanding Council Tax Debt of £1270.73. BAILIFF A demanded immediate payment and if not he would have me arrested and imprisoned. My wife was present and witnessed what took place. I asked BAILIFF A for proof that he was a certificated bailiff. BAILIFF A refused. I explained that The Borough Council obtained an attachment of earnings order in October 2007 and showed the documentation. I explained there was no need for BAILIFF A to neither visit nor threaten me with arrest and imprisonment. The Ministry of Justice confirmed that BAILIFF A was not a certificated bailiff for BAILIFF COMPANY ABC on the 6th November 2007. His certificate and bond was registered with BAILIFF COMPANY XYZ. Statutory regulations laid down by Parliament state that if there are "any changes" to the certificate, the bailiff must “without delay” give notice to the Court and a new certificate must be issued to him reflecting the changes. I complained to BAILIFF COMPANY ABC on the 12th November 2007 regarding this matter and I have not received a response. Summary of complaint against BAILIFF A • BAILIFF A acted unlawfully by threatening me with arrest and imprisonment. • BAILIFF A refused to provide evidence that he was a certificated bailiff. • BAILIFF A was not a certificated bailiff for BAILIFF COMPANY ABC on the 6th November 2007. • BAILIFF COMPANY ABC charged £24.50 for the visit on 6th November 2007 despite an attachment of earnings order being in force. BAILIFF B On the 20th August 2008 BAILIFF B a bailiff employed by BAILIFF COMPANY ABC visited my home to enforce a liability order obtained by The Borough Council for an outstanding Council Tax Debt. BAILIFF B entered my home and explained his reasons for attending. I disputed the amount of money he was demanding. BAILIFF B threatened that I would be arrested if I did not make an immediate payment. I asked for time to raise the money but he said if he was kept waiting any longer the fees would increase. I had no choice but to ask my daughter to make a payment of £400.00 on her credit card. BAILIFF B processed the payment and took an extra £20.00 as a fee for processing the payment. My wife signed a walking possession order and we agreed to clear the remaining balance the following month. I disputed a £200.00 van fee which had been noted on the walking possession order. The regulations allow for bailiffs to charge a walking possession fee of £12.00 and this case a levy fee of £62.00. Once they have obtained a walking possession order they then have the opportunity to return to remove the goods levied upon. A bailiff cannot charge a van fee on the same day they obtain a walking possession order. The regulations clearly state “where following the levy, goods are not removed” Once a bailiff has levied upon goods he is then at liberty to charge a fee for a van if he is required to return and enforce the terms of the walking possession order. According to the legislation, the purpose of a visit is to levy upon goods and the bailiff can charge either a fee of £24.50 for attending to levy where no levy is made or he can charge a levy fee if he does levy. He cannot charge both fees. The bailiff charged me both fees By levying upon goods the bailiff will be obtaining a walking possession and this "Contract" states upon it that goods will NOT be removed for "AT LEAST 5 DAYS" Thus there is no requirement for a van fee. The statutory legislation as laid down by Parliament provides that he should have "attended with a view to levying upon goods" not the actual removal of goods. To clarify further, for an "attending to remove fee" to be legally applied the bailiff must have previously levied upon goods. There is clear cut case law on this; Evans v South Ribble Borough Council 1991 Court of Appeal. In this case, Justice Simon Brown made the point very clear that Distress consists of 3 separate stages: 1. The entry into the property 2. The levying of the goods 3. The removal of the goods On the 20th August 2008 BAILIFF B you had no reason to charge for a van as he was attending to levy not remove. He did not remove any goods requiring a van and he received an immediate payment with an arrangement to clear the remaining balance in full which was maintained. In the alternative, should the court find that the van fee was appropriately charged, I contend that the regulations also state that van fees are to be reasonable. The fee of £200.00 is totally unreasonable and extortionate. Attached are quotations from local companies who are able to hire a van for a full day at rates between £26.00 and £42.00. With a £30.00 (300 mile) allowance for diesel, a reasonable fee would be approximately £72.00. BAILIFF B also charged a £24.50 “No Sale Fee”. I cannot find any reference to a no sale fee in the regulations pertaining to bailiff fees. BAILIFF B levied unlawfully on the 20th August 2008. The levy consisted mainly of basic household items which cannot be levied upon. The levy included items required for basic living as detailed below: Washing Machine, Dining Table, Dining Chairs, Living Room Sofa and Microwave The above items are necessary for satisfying the basic domestic needs of my family. The value of the goods levied upon was disproportionate to the debt. The walking possession order was for £1323.76 plus fees. The value of the goods levied upon was: Washing Machine £299.00 Living room furniture £2100.00 Samsun TV £699.00 Dining room furniture £150 Microwave £50.00 Total value £3298.00 Summary of complaint against BAILIFF B • BAILIFF B acted unlawfully by threatening me with arrest. • BAILIFF B misled me into believing that I would have to pay a waiting time fee if I did not find a way to make an immediate payment. • BAILIFF B charged a £20.00 card processing fee which is not allowed for in the regulations. • BAILIFF B charged a £200.00 van fee which is not allowed for in the regulations. • Alternatively, the van fee was extortionate and unreasonable and should be approximately £72.00. • BAILIFF B charged a “No Sale Fee” which is not prescribed in the regulations. • BAILIFF B levied unlawfully on goods that were basic household items and levied disproportionately. BAILIFF COMPANYABC BAILIFF COMPANY ABC claim a bailiff visited my home on 29th January 2009 to collect on account number 1111. A bailiff did not visit me on these dates nor did a bailiff post any letters through my letter box. I have been charged £18.00 for this visit which did not take place. Furthermore, there was no need to visit my home regarding this account as an attachment of earnings was in force from October 2007. I had already informed BAILIFF COMPANY ABC of this fact on the 6th November 2007 and the 12th November 2007. BAILIFF COMPANY ABC claim a bailiff visited my home on 29th January 2009 to collect on account number 2222. A bailiff did not visit me on these dates nor did a bailiff post any letters through my letter box. I have been charged £24.50 for this visit which did not take place. There was no need for a visit to my home to collect on account number 2222 as this account had been paid in full in October 2008. I have no idea why BAILIFF COMPANY ABC claim they visited my home on the 29th January or why they have charged a first visit fee of £24.50. BAILIFF COMPANY ABC claim a bailiff visited my home on 29th January 2009 and again on 27th April 2009 to collect on account number 4444 and account number 3333. A bailiff did not visit me on these dates nor did a bailiff post any letters through my letter box. I have been charged £85.00 for these visits which did not take place. I have paid £809.73 to account number 1111 by way of an attachment of earnings order. BAILIFF COMPANY ABC say they have contacted The Borough Council to establish whether I have made these payments. They claim I have not made these payments and continue to threaten enforcement. I have also made the following payments: £68.75 Cleared through my account 28th May 2008 Cheque Number 100161 £69.75 Cleared through my account 4th July 2008 debit card payment £75.00 Cleared through my account 7th August 2008 Cheque Number 100184 BAILIFF COMPANY ABC denies receiving these payments. When BAILIFF B obtained a walking possession order on the 20th August 2008 for account number 2222 he took an immediate payment of £420.00 by credit card. £20.00 was retained by BAILIFF COMPANY ABC as a card processing fee. £300.00 was applied to account 2222. The remaining £100.00 is unaccounted for and BAILIFF COMPANY ABC refuses to answer my request for the whereabouts of this money. Summary of complaint against BAILIFF COMPANY ABC • I have been unlawfully charged £18.00 on account number 1111 for a visit that did not take place. A visit should not have taken place in any case as the matter was being handled directly by The Borough Council by way of an attachment of earnings. • I have been unlawfully charged £24.50 on account number 2222 for a visit that did not take place. This account was paid in full in October 2008. • I have been unlawfully charged £85.00 on accounts 4444/3333 for visits that did not take place. • Account 1111 has not been updated to reflect the payment of £809.73 I have made. BAILIFF COMPANY ABC are continuing with enforcement action. • BAILIFF COMPANY ABC deny receiving £213.50 and refuse to allocate these payments to my accounts. • £100.00 is missing from account 2222. Conclusion BAILIFF COMPANY ABC claim I still owe £1414.26. They have misappropriated funds paid to them. They have applied unlawful charges for work that has not been done. They have ignored the proven fact that I had cleared account number 2222 and they have ignored the proven fact that The Borough Council obtained an attachment of earnings order resulting in payments of £809.73 I calculate these errors and unlawful activities to amount to: Unlawful fees for visits that did not take place or were unnecessary due to an account being paid n full or payments being made by an attachment of earnings. £127.50 Payments made to which they fail to recognise. £213.00 Van Fee. £200.00 Payments made to account 1111 by attachment of earnings order. £809.73 Account 2222 No Sale Fee – no prescribed law or regulation for this fee. £24.50 Missing £100.00 from £420.00 credit card payment made on the 20th August 2009. £100.00 Credit card transaction fees as no prescribed law or regulation allows for such fees. £20.00 Total £1494.73 I have written 12 letters to BAILIFF COMPANY ABC since November 2007 explaining the above complaints. None of the points raised have been acknowledged or upheld by BAILIFF COMPANYABC.

Ok, this is developing well and I have a change on mind in regard to my next course of action. I wrote a 7 page letter to the bailiffs 14 days ago explaining everything. I had a reply a couple of days ago simply stating they have been lawful in their actions and that all charges are correct. They even claim that they contacted the council to confirm if there was an attachment of earnings in place and they claim there wasnt (i have payslips to prove it). I wrote another 7 pager last night in response. As I have written a total of 12 letters since November 2007 I feel there has been ample opportunity for the bailiff company to sort the problems out. I now think it is time to file a form 4 complaint without delay. I shall turn my latest 7 pager into a form 4 but condense it and make it more appropriate for the court. Question, are there any rules as to how I present my complaint? Is this a different process as it is heard at a magistrates court rather than a county court? I'll start to prepare the document and popst the text here. 1970.

Thanks - called the number and found out that when he called on me as an abc company employee he was actually certificated to xyz company. Certificate granted on the 30th April 2007 - xyz bailiff company. Berkenhead County Court. Certificate renewed on the 30th March 2009 - abc bailiff company. Merthyr Tydfil County Court. He visited me as an abc company employee on the 6th November 2007. Is this lawful?

The are both certified. However, one of the shows that his certificate was granted in March this year yet he visited me in November 2007 ???

Thanks Tomtubby, I shall use this text in my letter. This matter is a case of incorrect fees and also the bailiff taking payments and keeping the money themselves. I calculate that with the missing payments and the unlawful charges they owe me more than I owe them. I have given them a further 7 days to correct the situation and then I will file a form 4 complaint. Here's a question, my complaint is against 2 individual bailiffs and the firm itself. Do I have to file 3 separate form 4's or can I include all three on one form? 1970.

Excellent, the main point is the charging of the van fee on the same day as the wp and levy fee. my understanding is that the van fee only applies if the have to return once more to enforce the wp. it cant be charged on the same day they obtained the wp although the bailiff asserts they can. I hope thats the case anyway.

Hi, Here's an update. I had a letter in reply to my complaint to the bailiffs. Here are some comments from their letter which I could do with some help with: Bailiff Letter: Account Number xxxxxx Fees breakdown Debt owed £1323.76 Levy Fee £62.00 Walking Posession Fee £12.00 Attending to remove goods £200.00 No Sale Fee £24.50 Our bailiff attended on the 20th August 2008 with the view to removing goods, goods were levied upon and the above fees were correctly incurred. You ascertain that the bailiff is unable to charge for attending to remove goods when he intended is not correct. We would refer you to schedule 5 number C which states: "For one attendance with a vehicle with a view to the removal of goods (where following the levy, goods are not removed) Reasonable costs and fees incurred" Our bailiff attended with the view to the removal of goods, levied upon goods and goods were not removed accordingly the criteria was met. Our bailiff levied accordingly and the levy fee is due, the visit fees quoted in your correspondence apply only when the bailiff has not levied, clearly on this account the bailiff has levied and you have incurred a levy fee. My initial complaint was that they cannot charge a van fee until after a walking posession order has been obtained. Im my case they have charged a van fee on the same day that they came to get the walking posession order signed. I also challenged whether there should be a Levy fee as well as a no sale fee. If they are correct then they will get away with charging £298.50 for a single visit. I'm very keen to get a full understanding of the correct fees and how they should be charged. I can also argue that £200 is unreasonable for a van fee but thats an easy one. Any ideas? 1970.

Hi, A bailiff company claims the visited my home on two occasions in the last six months and have sent me a bill for £24.50 x 2 and £18.00 x 2 (the are chasing 2 accounts). I know for a fact they did not call as we always have someone at home during the day. What's more, we have not had any letters put through the letter box. How do I prove they did not call or is it up to them to provide the proof - if so, what kind of proof should I ask them for? Thanks, 1970.