winchester

If you are still making payments through your CCCS to these cards that are not on your credit report, then they could still be enforceable, because they would not be statute barred.

Of course they could still be found to be unenforceable if there is something wrong with the agreement, so send a request for a copy.

Alan

Donkey

What happens to all those CCJ's HFO have obtained if they lose their credit licence or go into liquidation?

Alan

We see no end of people complaining about default entries been registered on file without ever recalling reveiving one or the creditor been able to send a copy. Then it is much more harder for the consumer to get the info removed than it is for a creditor to place it there. Again my point of the balance been weighed in the creditors favour.

James

I used to think exactly the same as you until someone explained that a Default Notice and a default entry on your credit file are two different things.

The Default Notice is purely to allow the creditor to take the next step - enforcement of the debt. The default entry on your credit file is to denote that the relationship between the creditor and the debtor has broken down. Thus you could have your credit file in default without receiving a Default Notice.

The confusion arises because both of the above are normally enclosed in the Default Notice - i.e. threatening to take further enforcement action, and informing you they will inform the CRA's. Although this is the norm, I am told that they could be dealt with as separate issues.

Alan

Is it nice to be Holier than Thou, Brigadier?

Alan

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maureen

If you need a copy of that judgement Ian has pointed to, let me know.

Alan

The sale and purchase of the debt is under the Law of Property act.

Also there in no obligation on the creditor to supply a copy of any agreement

with a SAR as this is dealt with sects.77/78 etc CCA1974

Brigadier

According to the people I have spoken to at the ICO, the agreement is personal data, and should be included in any SAR package, if they still have it.

Alan

You should be sent a copy of the agreement in response to an SAR - if you are not then they have not complied with your SAR. An SAR is made under the data protection act. (If they do not have a copy then they do not need to send it you to comply - they only have to send what they actually have).

 

The £1 payment is for a legal request made under the Consumer Credit Act - and is specifically for the Agreement. (If they fail to comply with this request then they are barred from enforcing the agreement).

You can use the SAR to find out if the document sent in reply to a s77-79 request is a genuine copy. Under an SAR the creditor has to send a copy of the document - not a reconstituted copy. This will probably be a copy of the application, but at least you will know what the OC has.

Alan

This is how business is done. A car dealer buys a car for a price that is a lot less than he sells it for, same difference.

Not quite the same thing, the car dealer does not charge you the price of a new car for the one he bought at auction.

Alan

Was this "cash" supposed to have been paid through the bank, or directly to them?

How long has RobWay had the account? Did they ever send you yearly arrears statements?

Alan

I was looking through the ICO technical guide on defaults and at section 21 - an arrangement to pay, on page 11, the point is made that:

"If a customer fails to return to contractual payments after an ‘arrangement to pay’ has expired, then the lender can file a default immediately, as long as this would not place the customer in a worse position than they would have been in, had they not made the arrangement." (my emphasis)

I do not know if this has been added to the updated version of the technical guide, or whether it has always been there, but possibly a point to complain about to the ICO, if a default marker has been placed.

Sorry I do not have a link for the guide, but it is on ICO site.

Alan

Braders

Was it always a Platinum card, or did it start off as Gold, and they asked if you wanted to upgrade?

I had a Platinum Card, and they asked if I would like to add FlexSelect to the card. I said yes - not really knowing what it was. It was some months later that I found that FlexSelect is actually a credit card option within a charge card, and as such is governed by CCA1974. All purchases over £150 - at that time - went to the FlexSelect.

Did they ever offer you this option, and if so, did you take it up? If you did take it up, then it becomes a little more difficult for Amex.

Did Amex/Newmans add extra "collection" charges to your account?

If you have a straight charge card then asking for a copy of your agreement will get you nowhere, because charge cards do not come under CCA1974 protection. They will send a copy of your application - make sure that the card number tallies with yours - and tell you that that together with your statements is enough.

Having said that, request copies of CCA from those MBNA & RBS. Send it off to Amex as well, it will delay matters for you while you decide what to do.

Alan

Braders46

You say you have an Amex charge card, which one is it? Did they ever offer you the option of a FlexSelect account with it?

Alan

Who is the DCA?

Alan

Can any one tell me how you can work out the average APR for the first year of a credit card if the first six months are 0%, after which the interest reverts to a normal rate of say 15%, for example?

Alan

Marie

Just to go back to your original post, have you ever had a Monument account? You also say that HFO say you have two defaulted accounts, what is the other defaulted account?

Monument took on Providian Bank customers, and were owned by Barclays - as you are aware. Barclays sold Monument to Raphaels Bank, so it is possible that if you have an account number, they may be able to trace some information for you.

Alan

DM

Almost all applications state that, but as an ordinary debtor you are not extected to know CCA1974, that is why as a minimum the creditor, pre 2006, must put the prescribed terms on a document that he classes as an agreement. Unless he can show that that was only one page from, let us say a two page document the second of which contained the prescribed terms, then he falls foul of CCA1974 sec61(1) and 127(3), as I laid out in post #16.

As it stands, if your "agreement" does not show those prescribed terms then it is not a compliant agreement.

Alan

DM

For pre 2006 applications to also serve as agreements, they have to contain the prescribed terms. They should be on your signature page, but may be printed on the reverse, so long as it says something like "sign only if you agree with the terms & conditions overleaf". The T&C's are not signed unless they form part of the agreement - by that I mean that they and the agreement are treated as one document, perhaps by page numbers, or physically joined to the agreement.

If your "agreement" is the same as Jacks, then I would advise you to send them the same letter. One thing I should have mentioned to Jack is to mark the letter ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE.

What you have is what you have said it looks like - an application.

Alan

No just ask them the one question. If you make the request too long they just skirt around the issue. Mind you, they will probably do that anyway.

If they still avoid the question or say it says it is governed by CCA1974, then look at the CPUTR 2008 thread, and send them a letter asking the question "Have you got an agreement that would satisfy s61(1) and 127(3) of CCA1974". I kept getting the brush off from Tesco until they finally said that I did not sign their "agreement" - it was reconstituted although they would not admit it - but I signed the Credit Card and that is enough, so that is another unenforceable agreement.

Alan

As your account is pre 2006, if you signed a piece of paper that did not have any of the prescribed terms on it, it falls foul of sec61(1) and sec 127(3) of CCA1974, and in that case the court is precluded from finding against you.

61. (1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms

and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed

manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner,

and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms,

and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in

such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section

61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether

or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1))

itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or

hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

I know that some will disagree with me, but if the case is presented correctly, you should not lose.

Anyway that may never happen, just ask them to point out where the prescribed term are on the document you signed.

Alan

Paperwork arguments can no longer be relied upon

Is that true? No NoA, invalid assignment, invalid DN, no Agreement pre 2006 - all paperwork and can all win you a case if presented correctly.

If a DCA has indeed bought the debt in a portfolio of other debts then they will have no information regarding the history of these accounts, all they will see is the figure outstanding, and believe, somewhat incorrectly, that they are entitled to that amount.

If that is so, why do Cabot - as an example - try to reclaim "arrears" by saying it was a live agreement when they bought it?

If the DCA is merely acting on behalf of their 'client' and you raise the issue of a faulty DN then all the OC has to do is to simply issue you with another one that meets the requirements.

I was talking about absolute assignments (although I did not make that clear), not equitable. I would also add that almost all of my creditors issued me with invalid DN's, some accounts were sold. Of those they sold to DCA's two were returned because of invalid DN's. The OC in each case threatened me with issuing a new DN, but never did. It is not easy for the OC to get all his facts and figures right enough to issue a new DN when an account has been sold off and returned.

Alan

If a DCA buys what they believe to be a correctly terminated account, which is subsequently found to be still live due to an invalid DN, in what state does that leave the assignment?

I believe that Deed of Assignment/Sale Agreement would have to state what condition the Agreement is - live or terminated. If the state of the assignment does change, does this mean that the assignment is invalid, and must be returned to the original creditor or treated as an equitable assignment? If a date being wrong by one day can invalidate an assignment, why not the state of the agreement - live or terminated.

If that is so, then it brings more questions such as if the OC - Goldfish for example - is no longer trading, what happens then?

Alan

What was on the attached pages?

Alan

FTA

Can I ask when you took the Credit Card out?

I guess that the 14 days you gave them are up by now, have you issued a claim? If you haven't then issue one. Capital One will pay up within two weeks of receiving your claim.

Alan

Did you also receive a page of terms & conditions which were supposed to be the reverse of your signature page?

Alan