ECP ANPR Lease CAr PCN - MFG Esso Cobham serv station A2 Trunk Road, Cobham DA12 3BH

[PCNWarrior]

I have received a PCN from Euro Car Parks for MFG - Esso Cobham - Gravesend. I was completely unaware that there was any such limit for parking and always considered this to be a service station.

I stopped there to use the toilet, have a coffee and made a couple of work calls.

I have read the previous topics on this location which suggest I can ignore this and ECP will not take legal action.

The one possible complication is that the vehicle is leased by my employer so I do not want to involve them with the associated reminders and threatening letters.

The PCN was first issued to the leasing company Arval who have notified ECP of the hiring company.

I have attached a copy of the PCN Notice to Hirer with details removed as per instructions.

What options do I have or should I just pay the PCN promptly at the reduced rate of £60?

 

PCN Notice to Hirer.pdf

[FTMDave]

Well done on reading the other threads.

If ECP haven't got the guts to do court then there is no reason to pay them.

From other threads there is a 35-minute free stay after which you need to pay, with the signs hidden where no-one will read them.  Which probably explains why ECP threaten this & threaten that, but in the end daren't do court.

As for your employer - well you can out yourself as the driver to ECP so the hamster bedding will arrive at yours.  Get your employer to do that using the e-mail address under Appeals and Transfer Of Liability.

 

[dx100uk]

who gave you the NTH?

who was it sent to?

thread title updated

dx

 

[lookinforinfo]

The Notice to Hirer does not comply with the protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule  4 . This is before I ask if Europarks have sent you a copy of the PCN they sent to Arval along with a copy of the hire agreement et. if they haven't done that either you are totally in the clear and have nothing to worry about and nothing to pay.

The PCN they have sent you is supposed to be paid by you according to the Act within 21 days. The chucklebuts have stated 28 days which is the time that motorists have to pay. Such a basic and simple thing . The Act came out in 2012 and still they cannot get it right which is very good news for you.

Sadly there is no point in telling them- they won't accept it because they lose their chance to make any money out of you. they are hoping that by writing to you demanding money plus sending in their  unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors that you might be so frightened as to pay them money so that you can sleep at night. Don't be surprised if some of their letters are done in coloured crayons-that's the sort of  level of people you will be dealing with. Makes great bedding for the rabbits though.

Euro tend not to be that litigious but while you can safely ignore the debt collectors just keep an eye out for a possible Letter of Claim. They are pretty rare but musn't be ignored. Let us know so that you can send a suitably snotty letter to them showing that you are not afraid of them and are happy to go to Court as you like winning.

 

[PCNWarrior]

The NTH was sent to the company I am employed by who lease the vehicle from Arval.

Arval also sent my employer the original PCN for reference and passed on contact details to Euro Car Parks.

Euro Car Parks have only sent the NTH to my employer, not the original PCN.

What should I do next, ask my employer to submit a transfer of liability to my personal details?

I'm not comfortable ignoring the notices when they are addressed to my employer.

 

[FTMDave]

1 hour ago, PCNWarrior said:

What should I do next, ask my employer to submit a transfer of liability to my personal details?

Yes.

[lookinforinfo]

Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. 

According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP.

When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose.

Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court.

Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.

[lookinforinfo]

S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b)a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC-----

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

S14 [1]  

the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer.

(2)The conditions are that—

(a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;

(b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; 

As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 

[PCNWarrior]

Thanks to everyone for the very useful guidance and advice, it's really appreciated.

My employer has sent the Change of Liability email this morning.

So going forwards I just ignore all communications UNLESS they issue a Letter of Claim in which case I will provide an update here and you can supply a letter template for reply.

Wishing everyone a great weekend.

[FTMDave]

It's probably a good idea to come back here when the next letter from them turns up. 

It remains to be seen if they will act on your employer's communication or will just continue with the cycle of their daft "threatening" letters.

[PCNWarrior]

Ok, noted, thanks again. I'll share details of every communication received just to make sure.

[PCNWarrior]

Update -

ECP have processed the transfer of liability and amended the PCN with my personal details as per attached letter.

What is my next move?

 

2024-05-01 EPC NTH event 2024-03-27.pdf

[FTMDave]

On 25/04/2024 at 01:04, FTMDave said:

Well done on reading the other threads.

If ECP haven't got the guts to do court then there is no reason to pay them.

From other threads there is a 35-minute free stay after which you need to pay, with the signs hidden where no-one will read them.  Which probably explains why ECP threaten this & threaten that, but in the end daren't do court.

Just ignore them.

But come back here if you ever get a Letter of Claim - that must never be ignored.

[dx100uk]

On 26/04/2024 at 00:53, lookinforinfo said:

S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b)a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by ECP-----

wheres page 2 and the copy of the hire agreement they must also send?

please take  the trouble to NAME your uploads too, just like i have now.

[lookinforinfo]

well you could begin by laughing. the idiots at Europarks have had two attempts at sending you a compliant Notice to Hirer and have failed both times.

For the second time they have quoted 28 days to respond but the protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 Section 14 [2][b]requires 21 days notice.

They keep asking who was driving which is irrelevant, only the hirer is liable which is why the notice is to the hirer which seems way over their heads. They should have sent you a copy of  the original PCN , your hire agreement and confirmation that you are responsible for motoring offences at the same time, which I assume they didn't do once again.

You have more chance of being made a Dame of the British Empire than losing against these numbskulls. Just relax and ignore anything else they send you. I doubt they will send a letter of Claim but if they do let us know straight away so we can have a laugh and send them a snotty letter.

[PCNWarrior]

Good Evening

I received a "Final Notification Letter" today as attached. Please advise on what I should do next.

ECP Final Notification Letter_22225201.pdf

[dx100uk]

nothing, its not a letter of claim, which you of course have been reading up about in the last month during your SELF HELP using this site......and not just vanishing doing nothing....

[PCNWarrior]

Thanks and apologies, I should have worded my last post better. I'm aware that the Letter of Claim is all important and will reference if I continue to receive correspondence from them.

[lookinforinfo]

You will receive more threatening letters from them and their unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors. and unlawfully increasing the charges . Do not worry. Their NTH is non compliant and I assume they did not send copies of your hire agreement etc with it. 

As I explained in post 8 under S14 when they don't comply with that section, the hirer is not liable. But still keep a look out for an LOC as they are too stupid not to know they haven't a leg to stand on.

[PCNWarrior]

Good Afternoon

I have just received the attached correspondence from Debt Recovery Plus pursuing the overdue payment. There is still no Letter of Claim so I assume I should continue to sit tight and do nothing?

Many thanks

Debt Recovery Plus 20240720_15312023.pdf

[FTMDave]

DRP are an uninterested third party who can't do anything as it's not their debt.

Use the letter to play paper aeroplanes with, or as hamster bedding, or for a similar activity of your choice.

[lookinforinfo]

I am unsure that you have confirmed that all you received was the Notice to Hirer non compliant though it was. You should have received a copy of the original PCN sent to Arval, as well as a copy of the Hire agreement with Arval as well as a copy of your Company's agreement to be responsible for any motoring offences. Can you tell s what you received please?

[dx100uk]

On 09/05/2024 at 00:07, dx100uk said:

wheres page 2 and the copy of the hire agreement they must also send?

please take  the trouble to NAME your uploads too, just like i have now.